Knife forging question

[James]

If a knife is made by forging, is it acceptable to use a file to smooth the blade when finishing or is it  expected that the forging be smooth enough to be left as is? I don't want to use the material removal method to shape the blade, it's just that my forging skills don't leave a "perfectly flat" surface once I have the blade shaped.
Thank you, Jim

[LRB]

  Not only acceptable, but expected. Either file, grind. or both depending on your equiptment. Generally speaking, knife blades and most other smith work was not left with a forge finish. It was considered sloppy or the sign of an amatuer. The work does not have to have a high finish, but enough to remove hammer marks and scale pitting.

[Long Ears]

James,
  LRB is dead on. I also understand wanting to do it the old way. They had those big peddle driven stones and files if the metal hasn't been hardened. If they didn't how would you sharpen a crooked edge? I'm sure you know but I'll throw it out there, If you use a Flatter on a good large anvil it will really help. Bob

[James]

Thanks for the clarification. I am getting a good flat blade, just not as smooth as the knives I've seen by others. It was likely a stupid question, but one I wanted to know the answer to.

[Dphariss]

If a knife is made by forging, is it acceptable to use a file to smooth the blade when finishing or is it  expected that the forging be smooth enough to be left as is? I don't want to use the material removal method to shape the blade, it's just that my forging skills don't leave a "perfectly flat" surface once I have the blade shaped.
Thank you, Jim

Hammer marks on the blade is a sign of poor workmanship.
File and polish it smooth.
Learn to use the hammer better will reduce the severity of the hammer marks.
Dan

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Every one of these answers is dead on. I just happen to be taking a short break from the filing process as I write this. There is great wisdom in these words. Personally I like taking the the knife edge down as thin as I can on the forge for the simple fact my files aren't in the greatest shape .

  I fell in love with that friction folder and trying to make one at the present time.

  Rich

[Chris Treichel]

Also make sure both your hammer and anvil are very smooth... Any marks on your anvil and hammer will be transferred to your work. Belt sanders make for short work. Files are great, you can also look into a tool called a sen. 

[rickevans]

Learn to draw file (or flat file) to remove those tool marks and start the blade to finishing.  All good instruction from these other guys. Excellent instruction.

[rich pierce]

I agree 100% with what's posted above.  There's some "period" stuff made nowadays that seems to reflect a naive belief that everything was crude back in the day, or that unspecialized frontier folks made everything themselves. Hence a lot of black wrought iron stuff with hammer marks all over it.  By contrast most period blacksmith made tools and household items show quite a bit of finishing work.

[Canute Rex]

My master smith (I was an apprentice once) kept (and probably still keeps) his anvil face to a mirror finish. Also his hammer faces.

It's good practice to have separate forging and driving hammers. Keep one set of hammers polished and only use them on hot metal. Keep another set for hitting chisels, punches, and such.

Perhaps you once complemented someone and that person joked, "Flattery will get you nowhere." Well, in blacksmithing flattery will get you somewhere. That is, if you have a hammer called a flatter. It is of a class of handled tools called set tools - they are set on the piece of metal and hit with another hammer.

A flatter looks like a small sledge hammer with a big square plate welded to the face. The face of the plate is mirror polished and curves up slightly around the edges. You can work your knife between the flatter and the anvil and get the regular hammer dents out of it. Saves a lot of time.

My old master smith was so deft with his regular hammer that his work looked smooth like it was injection molded, right off the anvil. He was a classicist.

[smylee grouch]

How does one keep his work piece from flying around when using a flatter?

[John Archer]

Use a hold-down or a helper.

John

[whitebear]

Go to A.B.A.N.A.  (Artistic Blacksmith Association Of North America) on the internet, check for a group near you, contact the contact person and find out when they have there next hammer in.  Go ask lots of questions and drool.
As a whole these guys do some of the best blacksmithing work you will see and love to talk and explain what they do.
If you are in the Georgia area check on The Ocmulgee Blacksmith Guild.

[Long Ears]

Use a hold-down or a helper.

John
Also know as a "Third Hand" in some Blacksmithing circles. It fits in the round hole in your anvil. I made mine from an old hay rake tooth. Bob

[smylee grouch]

I might be able to make one of those hold down gizmos but a picture would be nice to help us uneducated get started.

[Long Ears]

smylee
  I knew you would want a picture! I need someone else to provide that if they can. I had my right knee replaced last week and I had to promise the wife I wouldn't go in the shop for at least 3 weeks. I have a habit to over due. The therapist seems to be keeping me reined in with his torture for now anyway.

[Canute Rex]

A hold down tool looks like an upside down J with the loop of the J pulled out a bit. Make it out of mild steel if you don't mind bending it back into shape now and then. It should be made out of round stock a little smaller that the pritchel hole (little round hole in the heel of your anvil). Forge or weld on a foot at the end of the J-curve.

You drop it into the pritchel hole and have it ready when you pull the piece out of the fire. Then swing it around over the piece and give it a couple of taps with the hammer to wedge it in place.

You'll want to make the hold down and then experiment with holding down cold pieces until you get the shape just right.

Then engage in flattery till the piece succumbs to your charm.

I would be careful about using the hold down to flatter a knife blade, though. You would tend to put the hold down on the handle of the knife, but you want the side of the blade of the knife to be flat on the anvil. You would end up with a slight twist between the handle and the the blade in that case. Better to put the hold down on one part of the blade, with the handle hanging out off the edge of the anvil. Then reheat, switch the position of the hold down, and do the other part of the blade. You can do all of this at a dull orange heat.

I second the ABANA recommendation. There are local chapters everywhere and it's all about welcoming people and teaching the craft. Overall, I've found that blacksmiths are some of the most relaxed people around. Maybe it's about spending your work day beating on something with a hammer. It is the only craft where "hit it harder" is a reasonable solution to most problems.

[bluenoser]

I might be able to make one of those hold down gizmos but a picture would be nice to help us uneducated get started.

Go th this link http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor.php?lesson=jd_holddowns/demo and look at the bent dogs or holdfasts.  The same arrangement is often used in traditional woodworking benches.  At times, a very handy tool indeed.

Laurie

[smylee grouch]

Thanks for that link Bluenoser. This place will be visited again for sure.

[James]

Dressing the anvil face is one thing I need to do that had not occurred to me. I have hammers strictly used on hot steel that I have smoothed the faces on. I have been planishing  silver coin on the anvil and not liked the finished smoothness, just didn't put 2&2 together.    You'll get me trained yet.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

My master smith (I was an apprentice once) kept (and probably still keeps) his anvil face to a mirror finish.


  My anvil hasn't had a mirror finish in close to  200yrs. At least if my research is correct. I have two Mouseholes, both without pritchel's. I believe the pritchel's were added somewhere between  1780 and  1790. The  165# was used as a REAL HEAVY table lamp when I rescued it from being thrown out. The  100# just showed up one day in my driveway.  A local farmer told my wife I'd probably get more use out of it then he would. It was his  3great grandfather's.
  As for used flatter's  still looking

   Rich

[jimtucker2]

 Look for a group called the "Appalachian Blacksmiths" and you will find some good help.  They have their gatherings
at Cedar Lake Camp near Ripley, W. Va.   You might also find a flattter on Anvilfire.   Good Luck.  Jim
My hold-down is a small chain fastened to one side of the anvil mount, with a lead weight on the other end  You drape it over
the anvil face and it gives enough pressure to hold the workpiece and willl allow aome flexing. 

[KNeilson]

Ive learned the grain structure of forged metal (for knives) is finer nearer the core, also contains more carbon as the surface tends to decarbonize in the fire. All things of course enhanced by the Smiths skill and time working the metal. I watched Mark Aspery forging at an Blacksmiths conference several years ago. While taking about hot rasping/filing  he had a ditty that stuck with me.. For a keen edge, a blacksmith to win,he must first forge it thick, then file it thin... fwiw my hold down is an old C clamp style vise grip, missing its top jaw, welded to a peg that friction fits in the hardy hole...  K

[LRB]

  Grain structure is determined by heat, and not by forging. Basically, steel is forged during it's production at the mills as it is formed into bars and rounds.  Further forging does nothing to enhance it more. Grain size is controlled by heat cycling and if any finer at the core, in a knife sized piece, the difference would be microscopic and insignificant. If a visible difference is seen by the naked eye, one might want to review and adjust the heat cycling proceedure being used.

[David R. Pennington]

I would rather hammer than file or grind so I try to bring my work as close to finished shape as possible on the anvil. Some file work however is almost always required. Another thing I have not seen mentioned is trying to keep scale off anvil as much as you can. It will cause surface imperfections.