S. Hawken rifle with a Leman lock.

[redheart]

In the book "Hawken Rifles" by John Baird on pg. 80  he shows an original S. Hawken rifle with a Leman lock owned by Dick Johnston.
Does anyone have closeup pictures of this rifle or any other hawken with a Leman lock?
I wonder if it was built with a lock salvaged off a damaged Leman rifle, any thoughts on how such a combination could be possible.
It looks like it would a fun project to build, at least something a little different.
Herb, Are you out there?

[Bob Roller]

In long ago conversations with both John Baird and Tom Dawson,
there was an opinion voiced that said that the Hawken shop would
use about any lock of decent quality that could be adapted to the bolster
breech and that sometimes meant stretching the hammer by splicing in
a piece or changing it.As Dawson said,"Anything was grist for the mill"
if it could be used and was reliable.

Bob Roller

[Herb]

Thanks  for your confidence, Redheart.  I am in no way an expert on Hawkens or much of anything so can't help you.  I don't have Baird's book and don't remember the rifle you refer to.  I like Bob's response.  It puts in perspective those who declaim exactly what a Hawken is.  I just reviewed Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III, Western U.S." in which he has photos of 35 Hawkens.  I think there are at leat 18 different locks there, and some of those hammers are downright ugly.  He has many of those Hawkens in his museum and I have looked at them and photographed them.  I think for a Hawken one should find photos of one you like and then build that one.  I like Kit Carson's but am building Jim Bridger's now, a very close copy.

[redheart]

Bob & Herb,

I thank you very kindly for the information.
I guess it's fair to say that the Hawken brothers didn't make their own locks and just about any quality lock could show up on their rifles.
It also seems likely then, that generally they didn't make their barrels or other metal parts either and were mostly builders and primarily made the stocks and assembled the rifles in their shop from outsourced parts.
 However, I would sure like to know which Leman lock is on the rifle in question, if it's a square tail or round tail, and if it's marked Leman, Lanctr P.A. with the stamped engraving or left blank.
I may never get to find out, but I guess a little mystery helps keep us all interested.

[Hungry Horse]

 I saw a big old .60 caliber fullstocked J&S Hawken rifle years ago, with a butt ugly lock in it, marked Adolphus Meier, St. Louis. I was told that Meier was a hardware dealer in St. Louis, and imported the locks from Germany. I also have a friend that has a small caliber Hawken rifle with a Golcher lock in it. Neither one of these guns appear to have had the locks replaced.


                            Hungry Horse

[redheart]

Hungry Horse,

Thanks,
I've heard of the Meier lock but not the Hawken with the Golcher lock.
Do you know if there are any pictures?
Now I'm gonna want one of those too.
O my God ! Now I'm gonna go broke.
Can anyone help me with this disease!!!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, the disease's symptoms are lessened by purchasing everything that comes to mind.  Accumulating inventory, as I call it, seems to make the disease easier to deal with.

[PPatch]

"...lessened by purchasing everything that comes to mind."

Just another "fix" along the addicts path Taylor  (and you know that)


dp

[redheart]

Dr. Sapergia,

I whole heartedly agree with your diagnosis and will go to work immediately filling the prescription as ordered !!! .

[Hungry Horse]

Redheart;

  This  small Hawken is in a  private collection, and is not documented at all that I know of. The gun is .34 cal., has one barrel key, and a poured nosecap. The mountings are iron, and the trigger guard has a short finger spur. At first glance I thought the gun could have been made by H. Dimmick rather than  S. Hawken. It has been a lot of years since I examined it, and can't really remember much else about it.

                       Hungry Horse

[Herb]

From Jim Gordon's book:  There is a fullstock Hawken with a lock marked Adolphus Meier, SNT Louis.  The lock, or at least hammer, is not bad looking.  The barrel is stamped S. Hawken.  there is a fullstock with a George Goulcher lock.  And an engraved J&S Hawken halfstock with a Josh Golcher lock and a patch (cap?) box.  Mariano Medina's Hawken is also pictured, with the lock marked A. Meier & Co. St. Louis.  Tom Tobin's halfstock has an Adolphus Meier & Co. SNT Louis lock.  Another halfstock with a Josh Goulcher lock.  A halfstock .64 caliber rifle with a lock marked Wilkes.  A Hawken sporting krifle with a G. Goulcher lock.  Two more with Josh Golcher locks.  These have one one barrel key and a trigger guard spur.

[redheart]

Hungry Horse,

Actually that helps me alot because there are pictures of two Hawken squirrel rifles mentioned in Baird's book pages 59, 60 & 63 that I believe will fill in all the blanks.
All I have to do is get a Golcher lock from TOTW and I will fulfill the Doctors orders.
Hungry Horse, I thank you kindly for contributing to my health and welfare.

Best regards,
Redheart

[redheart]

Herb,

Wow, This is great stuff!
So now we have Hawken's with Gibbon, Meier, Golcher & Leman locks and Hawken squirrel rifles with Dimick style trigger guards.
With info. like this from non-experts, we might not need to consult with experts.
Thanks Herb!!!

[Mtn Meek]

In the book "Hawken Rifles" by John Baird on pg. 80  he shows an original S. Hawken rifle with a Leman lock owned by Dick Johnston.
Does anyone have closeup pictures of this rifle or any other hawken with a Leman lock?

redheart,

You might try contacting Doc White and see if he has any pictures of the rifle of interest.  He shows some pics he took of a couple of Bill Fuller's Hawken rifles on his website.

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/myweb2/images/whiterifles/serv01.htm

In the caption below one of the pictures, Doc states, "At one time he [Bill Fuller] had a half dozen originals at his place. I got to know him well back in 1966-67. We dissected all of them and shot most."

[redheart]

Mtn Meek,

Many thanks Pal!
I'll do it!

[Dphariss]

In the book "Hawken Rifles" by John Baird on pg. 80  he shows an original S. Hawken rifle with a Leman lock owned by Dick Johnston.
Does anyone have closeup pictures of this rifle or any other hawken with a Leman lock?
I wonder if it was built with a lock salvaged off a damaged Leman rifle, any thoughts on how such a combination could be possible.
It looks like it would a fun project to build, at least something a little different.
Herb, Are you out there?

The Hawken Shop bought locks. Finding one with a Leman lock is not surprising.
Its possible it came from a broken gun but its more likely they needed locks and bought some marked Leman.
Not everything Leman made was junk.

Dan

[Dphariss]

This example, the silver mounted Hawken, probably has a lock and breech bought as a set.



This lock plate is remarkably like the Petersen Hawken lock and I suspect they came from the same maker, probably in Birmingham or???.


It may also provide an approximate date for the Petersen rifle since the Silver mounted rifle dates to 1836.

Dan

[Hungry Horse]

 The Adophus Meier lock on the Hawken rifle I mentioned looks like the lock pictured except the hammer is flat instead of rounded.


                     Hungry Horse

[Chuck Burrows]

This example, the silver mounted Hawken, probably has a lock and breech bought as a set.



This lock plate is remarkably like the Petersen Hawken lock and I suspect they came from the same maker, probably in Birmingham or???.


It may also provide an approximate date for the Petersen rifle since the Silver mounted rifle dates to 1836.

Dan

Dan that and the Peterson lock are both shotgun locks with no inner bolster as normal on rifle locks. The lock on the fancy Atcheson rifle is marked Ja's Golcher Warranted - the warranted implies at least that this lock was imported from England by Golcher.



Due to the similarity with the Peterson lock and both of their stock shapes, I agree that it gives at least a place to better perhaps give a closer date of the Peterson rifle. Still the Peterson rifle could be somewhat earlier since it has that uncommon variant cheekpiece which is much like the M1814/1817 common rifles as well as patch box shape similar to those rifles which Jake very likely worked on while at Harper's Ferry before leaving in 1818 to head west. In comparison the Atcheson rifle has a large beaver tail cheek piece which had become fairly common on the half-stocks by the late 1830's

here are links to large scale views of the two rifles under discussion:
Peterson Rifle
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-2.jpg

Atcheson Rifle
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-1.jpg

I'll get pics of the two cheekpieces up later if anyone's interested

[gene]

I am brand new to this, so here goes.  I have photo's of an S. Hawken which I took in 1981!, half stock with a Leman lock, marked Lanctr, Pa. It is a very unique rifle, with pineapple patch box, finger hook guard, what appear to be german silver escutcheons(sp). The photos were colored slides which I had printed up. I just have to scan them into my pc so I can try and post them. The trim looks like that full stock that the Smithsonean has/had.  I tracked the rifle down when I lived in Pocatello, Idaho. It was in an estate of a Dr. Shaw, who had a number of old rifles. When he passed an attorney had the rifle for keeping. I held it a photographed it. I know a man who was a good friend of Dr. Shaw who shot this rifle. He did a pencil trace on a piece of butcher paper of the rifle. I have that tracing also. Sorry about being wordy.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

No need for apology Gene.  We'll all be excited to see your documentation!!

[oakridge]

Gene, yes, please post the photos. Do you happen to know the caliber of the rifle?

[gene]

I need help with posting the photos. Cant figure out after I get them on my pc, how I attach them to a post before posting!!  Someone please get me some easy to understand info, and I will post them. Thanks

On caliber, it was at least a 50.  At the time, I didn't know enough to care.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Gene there's a tutorial on posting pics in the tutorial forum.  Or send them to me here:  dtaylorsapergia@gmail.com and I'll post them for you.

[gene]

Taylor, I sent one photo of the lock, and then about 13+ others. Did you get them all? Thanks Gene