Smoothbore load parameters

[Jerry V Lape]

I have a class to teach a group which will be new muzzle loading instructors when we are done.  It will include providing each of them greater experience with all the muzzle loading firearms types.  I have the background and information needed for everything except smooth bore load parameters.  Specifically, I would like to hear from experienced smoothie competitors with respect to ball size/patch thickness versus bore dimensions.  For example, if shooting a .58 cal smoothbore what ball size would be appropriate and how thick a patch is optimal.  Examples of several successful smooth bore combinations in the various bore sizes would be appreciated.

[pathfinder]

What I use in mine:

.410, .400rb,.018 patch,65grs 3f.  for shot,3 .44 cal wonder wads over the powder 1-1/2 measures of shot,i wonder wad over the shot.

Now I use commercial wads for my "Regular" size smoothbores. The load sequence is the same in all,so I'll say that here,then specific loads for round ball.

Powder,wad,over shot card,. 1-1/2 measures of shot,over shot card. I like the card between the wad and shot. SEEM'S to make the shot pattern a little tighter.


.28ga(54cal),.535 ball,.018 patch,70grs 3f  60grs powder for shot

24ga(.58),.570 ball with .018 patch. 80grs 2f  70grs 2f for shot

.20ga. .600rb .018 patch 65grs3f.  60grs3f for shot.

12ga. .690 rb,.018 patch 85grs 2f.   70grs2f for shot.

10ga.  .745rb,.018 patch. 90grs 2f.  75grs2f for shot.

Now,these are loads for MY gun's. A mix of Getz,Colerain,Rice and Rayl barrels. Of course you'll have to find the specific load for YOUR guns,but these are the loads that work in my specific gun's. Hope this help's. let me know if you need more info

[Jerry V Lape]

Pathfinder, that response was most helpful.  Do you have the actual bore diameter of you guage barrels so I can give them a relationship between ball and bore diameters in inches?

[pathfinder]

.410 = .410

.54 = .543

.58 = .581

.62 = .623

12 ga = .717

10ga = .770

[Jerry V Lape]

Pathfinder,

One more question.  The bore dimension you gave for the 12ga is .745.  With a .690 ball and the .018 patching,  the ball and patch combination would not be providing any compression in that bore.  Would you mind checking your numbers on the 12ga again?

[pathfinder]

It is a loose fit,.715's are too tight. Sorry,that's the size ball I shoot in my Bess. I'll change the dia. Thank's! I need to get a new Secretary! I also listed 660grs in my .20ga! whew,THAT would HURT!

[Jerry V Lape]

Pathfinder,  Again thanks for the help with your load data.  The 80gr powder load in your  24ga might wake you up as well.  I know each gun requires working up a proper load but this will help with a good idea where to begin on ball, powder and patch. 

[pathfinder]

Pathfinder,  Again thanks for the help with your load data.  The 80gr powder load in your  24ga might wake you up as well.  I know each gun requires working up a proper load but this will help with a good idea where to begin on ball, powder and patch. 

Yup,but that's what THAT gun likes!. And I have had quite a few smoothrifles over the years,from .32 through all the rest of "normal" calibers or gauges. It seem's that the smaller the caliber,the hotter the load needs to be.

[Jerry V Lape]

Roundball, it would be helpful to have your data to go along with that which Pathfinder sent. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've had several smooth bored guns over the years, and still have my Chambers' Penn Fowling Piece, in which I routinely shoot ball.  Here's a little info to add to Pathfinder's list"

20 gauge Penn Fowler.  .620 bore - .600 pure lead ball, .020" patch soaked with lube, 85 grains FFg GOEX.  Shot - 70 gr. FFg, 1/2 fibre wad, 7/8 oz shot, card wad over shot.

TRS Long Land Pattern Bess (1st Model) 10 gauge bore .770" .735" ball, .030" denim patch soaked with lube, 85 gr. FFg GOEX Shot - 85 gr. FFg, 1/2 fibre wad, 1 1/8 oz shot, over shot wad.

Japanese made Brown Bess:  .750 bore, .80 gr. FFg GOEX, .715" ball and .020" denim patch saturated with lube. Shot: 80 gr. FFg, 1/2 fibre wad, 1 pz. shot, over shot wad.

Centre Mark Tulle musket 20 bore:  .620" bore - .600" ball, .020" saturated denim patch over 70 gr. FFg. Shot:  Same as Penn Fowler.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I guess I am what is called here an "extreme traditionalist" http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=25329.msg242417#msg242417   Here is how I load smoothbores with shot:

I use somewhat lighter powder charges than those listed above, probably because I make my own barrels.

Generally I use just a bit above caliber charge and then use the same measure volume for the shot.  As a wad both over the powder and over the shot I use a simple paper wad, newspaper thickness paper about the size of the palm of the hand crumpled into a ball and rammed down tight.  For instance:

0.613 bore German fowling gun - 65 grain powder measure and same volume of shot

0.508 bore Lancaster smooth rifle - 55 grain powder measure and same volume of shot

Yes, I am certain that using die cut wads would give better performance, but so would a Remington Wingmaster.

Jim

[Kermit]

I'm with Jim on shot loads. Ever since reading V M Starr's work with muzzleloading shotguns, I've loaded powder at just about bore size = powder in grains. So my 20ga gets 65gr FFg Goex and my .50cal smoothrifle gets 55gr FFFg Goex. I load 2 thin overshot cards on the powder, then equal VOLUME of shot (same measure as used for the powder), and top it with one thin overshot card. I punch my cards from my wife's "Total" cereal boxes, but store bought are fine too.

I think most shotgun/fowling piece SHOT loads are attempting to copy the load column in shotshells. Starr's work showed that not to be necessary or desirable. He did a lot of work actually shooting at pattern boards. He's for sure worth a read.

Ball loads are another critter. I use the same powder loads and .600 and .490 balls. Can't remember the patch thickness at the moment. Spit is my preferred lube.

A trick I picked up somewhere is to use a squeeze-type leather hole punch to put a small notch on the edge of my cards. This allows air to escape past the cards as they are loaded, but the chances of the two notches lining up is mighty slim, and over the shot it matters naught. Just the way I like to do things.

[pathfinder]

Depending totaly on the situation,I too load traditionaly. The way I shoot a shotgun any more,(once ran 137 straight skeet with a Rem 1100 .410),The way it's loaded doesn't really matter much! In the feild I like to use wasp nest if i find one out there. Feel's good using the natural stuff.

[Vomitus]

Jerry said, quote

\ Specifically, I would like to hear from experienced smoothie competitors with respect to ball size/patch thickness versus bore dimensions.  For example, if shooting a .58 cal smoothbore what ball size would be appropriate and how thick a patch is optimal.

/ end quote

My 28 ga(.540) likes a .515 rb and a .024 soaked patch with 80 grains of ffg. It's a bit tight to start, but goes down nice. Shoots like a rifle.Scary!

[pathfinder]

Shoots like a rifle.Scary!

Out to 80 yard's,I have 2 smoothbores that are as good as a rifle. The others? Not so much! Wish I had the answer as to why. My .40 Bill Large smoothie,and my .77 Colerain. Stupid accurate.

[Keb]

I once had one of Curly's guns. It was a horrible looking outfit. Straight as a 2x4 stock & under 5 lbs.  Kicked like a mule but shot like a rifle. It had a 30" x .620" bore. I used 80 gr FF, .600" ball & .018" pillow ticking & spit from JoAnn's. For shot, 90 FF, two damp .125" cards, same measure shot & over shot card. I made all my own cards, .125" from heavy card stock I got at work & the over shot cards from the boxes screws came in (also from work). Pathfinder, you may remember the gun. You should, you came in 2nd place many times. I had a lot of the fellas accuse me of cheating because it shot so good. I was too dumb to be cheating. Ahhh, glory days. Now I can't slap my backside with both hands :/

[pathfinder]

There are SO MANY gun's I came in second to,hard to keep them straight!  That thing was a club,like ALL of his gun's,BUT,all he had to work with were museum piece's,ie;THE REAL ONES! I now have a 12ga,42" barrel I'm still "sighting" in. I LOVE it!

[frogwalking]

In Pathfinders initial response, he notes that he uses wonder wads in his .410.  I have not seen anyone else mention the need for a lubricated wad in shot loads for smooth bores.  My 20 gauge fowler would, well, foul, so badly after one shot I had to clean it before t he next load went down the barrel.  I used one heavy card wad between the powder and shot.  (It is a slick long-Hammock barrel)

I now make lubricated felt wads with a 5/8 inch wad punch, felt, and Dixie old zip patch grease.  I load one of these over powder and under the single card before the shot goes in.  In firing, the waxy grease melts, slimes the barrel, keeping fouling soft.    No need now to clean between shots, at least for a reasonable number of loadings.  This is not an issue with round ball loads as the lubricant on the patch does the job.

[Hungry Horse]

 I've never had too much luck with nearly bore size balls in a smoothbore. My old trade gun was home built from a ten dollar surplus shotgun barrel from Dixie. Its bore measured .625.  The best shooting load I found for it was a .595 patched round ball , seated on top of a long greased cushion wad, seated on top of 60 grins. of 2F. It shot well, and never needed swabbing in the middle of a shoot.

                          Hungry Horse

[satwel]

I have a 20 gauge French D trade gun. I think the bore is a tight .62 caliber. A .600 ball with a .018 pillow ticking patch was too tight. If I went to a .010 patch it didn't hold enough lube. Tried a .570 ball and denim patch cut from old jeans. That was easier to load and a little more accurate. Lucked into a slightly used .590 mold. Viola! Now I shoot a .590 ball with a .015 prelubed patch. I can start it in the muzzle with thumb pressure and it slides down the barrel with one slow push on the rod. Very accurate:

20 ga bore,  .590 ball, .015 patch

[frogwalking]

"Very accurate".  satwel.. do you use a back sight on your smoothie?

[Habu]

I've tried lubricated wads in a smoothbore, but never found them worth the bother.  Most of the time I load along the lines of what Starr described.  The often-overlooked key is found where he wrote

Now do what I tell you and no fooling_pucker up and spit down each barrel after the shot charge before you put in the wads the spit will soften up the fouling from the former charge and the wad will act like a squeege and clean the barrel each time you load and you can shoot all day without fouling troubles as long as you spit each time.

Dripping a couple-three drops of lube onto the shot before seating the over-shot wad works as well, if not better.  This will let you shoot all day (literally: I've seen 400+ rounds go through a gun without cleaning) and is particularly effective with smallbore (sub-16 gauge) shotguns.   

A small squeeze-bottle such as dish soap comes in works well for carrying the lube in your bag.  A couple of trap shooters I know have used larger bottles with pumps on them so the same amount of lube is used each shot.   

I generally use olive oil since I have it on hand.  I've tried thinner liquids such as Hoppes #9+ and neatsfoot oil, but always worried about the possibility of powder contamination (I never had it happen, but I worried about it). 

Taking what I've seen on pattern-boards as a guide, this doesn't effect the shot patterns BUT every gun I've done this with was a cylinder bore.  I'm not sure what effect (if any) it would have on patterns from a choked gun. 

[pathfinder]

I must be doing something right,I've not had the problems others have had with the fowling issues,especially in my Colrain .77 Bess. but for yuk's and giggles,I just may try that couple three drop's of ? on the shot.

[Dphariss]

I have a class to teach a group which will be new muzzle loading instructors when we are done.  It will include providing each of them greater experience with all the muzzle loading firearms types.  I have the background and information needed for everything except smooth bore load parameters.  Specifically, I would like to hear from experienced smoothie competitors with respect to ball size/patch thickness versus bore dimensions.  For example, if shooting a .58 cal smoothbore what ball size would be appropriate and how thick a patch is optimal.  Examples of several successful smooth bore combinations in the various bore sizes would be appreciated.

I would order some .562 balls from Track of the Wolf for a 58 SB.
Patched snug enough to load with just a little difficulty.
Dan

[Vomitus]

  I shoot all day without fouling buildup. This is with a 50 inch .540 smoothbarrel.  .540 bore, .510 ball and a 25 thou denim patch. Winter windshield fluid  mixed with a little neetsfoot oil. Saturated pre-cut patch. I've shot as many as 60 balls over a course of 3 hours and ball #60 loaded and shot as good as ball #2. Barrel cleans up easy. Thin patch makes loose loads which breed dirty barrels. Sorry.preachin to the quire again.