Lock Problem

[dannylj]

About finished with a flint mountain rifle and have a problem. The L&R lock works fine out of the rifle but when installed it hangs up on half cock. It does not appear to be binding or touching wood anywhere. It is a double set trigger and when it hangs up hammer will fall with a little more force on the trigger. I have tried resetting the trigger but nothing seems to work. Could use some advice.  Danny

[Acer Saccharum]

1) is there a fly in the lock? With the lock out of the gun, can you see the fly pop forward when the cock goes to full cock position?

[dannylj]

I thought I had checked everything except that. I will look at it.  Thanks

[dannylj]

The fly is working properly. I have about convinced myself the problem is trigger related - set too deep/shallow. I don't understand how it would be causing the hammer to not fall all the way. It trips the sear everytime. I.m frustrated.

[Acer Saccharum]

OK, the sear could be dropping into the halfcock notch on the way down.

Check this: very carefully and slowly pull back the hammer. Listen for the first click. Now look at your lock internals. Where is the fly? Did it jump ahead of the sear? or is it still under the sear?

[Bob Roller]

If the fly is in place and then when the set trigger releases the sear,it still catches in half cock,
that tells me the fly isn't working.As the hammer is drawn back out of half cock,the fly should
release and kick forward to intercept the sear.This is true of any lock with a fly.
With the lock off the gun,cock it and watch the function of the fly and then slowly release
the sear from full cock and see if it rides over the fly.If the fly stays back,it is probably being
bound by the bridle,maybe.Keep us posted.

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

To echo Bob, (Bob, Bob, Bob) that fly HAS to jump forward so the sear is prevented from dropping into half cock notch.

[dannylj]

Thanks for the replys. The problem is that the lock works perfectly when out of the gun. When installed the set trigger will release the sear everytime but it hangs up and does not appear to be a wood contact problem. I am very familiar with the lock workings and this is probably going to be something simple. It's just that my simple old mind can't figure it out.   Danny

[bgf]

Any chance the lock plate is bending when the screws are tightened, causing the tumbler and/or fly to bind?  I'm thinking that if the clearance at the back of the lock is tight around one of the screw heads on the bridle, it could cause you trouble.  Also, I once got the sear hole just a little too shallow and it would catch the tip of the sear bar when I first put it in.  Just things maybe worth checking.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I am not following your problem.  What do you mean "it hangs up"?  Does the sear drop into the half cock notch preventing the cock from going all the way down?  If so, something is preventing the fly from protecting the half cock notch...lock being squeezed against internal wood by the lock retaining screws...arm of the sear striking the lower side of its recess...end of the sear arm bearing against the bottom of the recess...etc.  To determine where the problem is, you must put transfer colour like inletting black on the lock and cycle it.  If it works outside the rifle, and does not inside the mortice, it IS a wood contact problem.  Or a trigger interference problem.  Perhaps the back trigger will not allow the sear to move through its full range.

[dannylj]

By hangs up I do mean that it falls into the halfcock position but only when in the gun. It does appear that it is a fly operation problem. I will double check (again) that there is no wood interference. As far as binding the lock by overtightening screws, I have tried tight and very loose and it makes no difference. Sometimes, by changing the depth of the trigger, I can get it to work. The trigger releases the sear everytime and if the fly is working it seems to me the hammer should fall. Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll keep playing with it and when I figure it out I will let y'all know even though I know I am going to be embarrassed.  Danny

[Acer Saccharum]

No shame here. Been through it with every gun I build. Of course it's simple, once you know what it is. 

[Mark Elliott]

I am familiar with this problem.    It is because of the slop in the fit between the plate and the bridle and/or slop in the fit of the sear allowing it to twist.    I am willing to bet the problem occurs because of an involuntary difference between how you cock the lock in and out of the gun.   Try putting pressure on the cock in different ways as you put the lock in full cock and make sure that the fly drops freely into place covering half cock notch.    Also make sure the sear doesn't twist under the bridle as you press on it.   If you have any of these problems, then you will need to bush the lock plate and bridle and refit the tumbler, bridle and sear.   New screws may be required.    L&R locks are a gigantic pain in the rear.

[Gene Carrell]

I have an L&R Queen Anne lock apart on my bench now (first L&R)  and one  thing I noticed is that the fly  'could' be reversed.  Is that possible?

[Acer Saccharum]

Danny, something I just thought of:

if the triggers are high, they will keep the sear depressed a bit, which could keep the sear from wiping the fly back, and also from pushing it forward when the lock fires.

Test this: If you take the triggers out, and operate the lock in the gun, tight, trip the sear with a screwdriver blade. Does the lock cycle properly?

[Hank*in*WV]

.    L&R locks are a gigantic pain in the rear.

...+1

[Acer Saccharum]

Please let's not bash manufacturers.

[FlintFan]

If the lock works fine out of the gun, you are most likely having a clearance issue with wood.  Make sure you have adequate clearance around all moving parts.  Coat everything (lock internals, triggers..etc) with candle soot, re-install, and run though the motions.  My guess it that there is not enough clearance in the sear hole.  When the trigger bar pushes against the sear, it might not pushing it as far as it needs to, to clear the fly and half cock.  Either that, or there is issues with clearance around the fly and it is rubbing against the wood, which is not allowing it to swing freely.  


Simple fix if you are able to spot the problem areas.

[Habu]

I'll keep playing with it and when I figure it out I will let y'all know even though I know I am going to be embarrassed. 

Just so you don't feel alone, I'll admit to having had a similar problem with a deluxe Siler.  Fixed it--after more time and profanity than I want to think about--by remembering to clean ALL the inletting black etc from the fly and recess.  The embarrassment fades after a year or two . . . .

[dannylj]

I really appreciate all of the help. I checked each item you all suggested and I think the smiley face is going to be Mark's. It is looking like the major problem is going to be a slight warp in the bridle allowing the fly to get hung up. I have squared things up a bit and it seems to be working. Another problem was a loose fitting hammer allowing a slight twisting of the internal parts causing binding. I put a small, thin, well polished washer between the hammer and plate to take up slack. We will see how it works out. Thanks to all of you.  Danny

[Jack Hubbard]

If the fly is not turned "pointing down", it will give you fits....Try that and see if it makes any difference....

[rsells]

It has been a long time since I have used an L&R, but I think Gene has a point.  I think the fly can be installed flipped over causing the angles on the fly to be incorrect.  I have also had issues where there is a sloppy fit between the tumbler, fly, sear, and bridle.  In this instance, I filed the bridle to close up the tolerences and got out of the woods on the problem.  Been a while!
                                                                     Roger Sells

[dannylj]

Y'all are correct about how easy it is to get the fly turned backwards. I've about decided my future guns will all have simple triggers. I think I have about worn this lock out taking it apart.

[Captchee]

 Hopefully you have fixed the problem .
 But I would bring up one other thing that can cause this  other then the fly being in backwards or a warped bridle  .
 That would be a case where you have a  very small burr on the fly itself .
 Often times the lock will work just fine when out of the stock . But catchs when you  try and use a set trigger .
 The reason for this is that when we work a lock  by hand ,  we inadvertently hold the sear away from the tumbler . So the sear glides easily across the  fly or across the ½ cock .
 But with the use of a set trigger , the  sear glides alone the tumbler  then across the fly . Because of that , any small burr on the fly can catch the sear  and then act like its caught the ½ cock ..

 If you have not  found your issue yet . When the lock catches , carefully remove it from the stock . Then look and see if  the sear is in the half cock or  hung up on the fly .
 If its in the ½ cock , then your fly isn’t working properly and you can them move to finding out why .

[Lucky R A]

When disassembling a L & R or similar lock I always swipe the outside of the fly with a red magic marker.  When reassembling you will know immediately if you have inavertenly flipped the fly over...saves time and profanity....Ron