New Mystery rifle HELP!!

[Ranger Canoe]

This is my new rifle also posted in friends new rifle. I am new to american long rifles and adding pictures is a challenge but here are a few pics. Can anyone identify this rifle? It is full stocked, 13/8" on the flats of the barrel. There are two rings carved into the nuzzle with no crown and it has eight grooves and lands. It has a gougher lock percussion. Weight is 15lbs.

[Ranger Canoe]

A few more pics of the rifle.

[Majorjoel]

From your pictures I note that you have a target or bench rifle that shows some Berks County PA traits from the Blue Mountain area. The patch box is very similar to boxes made and used by Carl Gorg (George) Maxatawny Township. A very nice and interesting rifle! It looks to be in original percussion and in very good shape. The George family of gunsmiths made a lot of great rifles. Thank you Ranger Canoe for shareing your rifle with us! More knowledgeable folks will chime in with this one. Patrick Hornberger (Eastwind) who wrote the book (Berks County Longrifles & Gunmakers 1750-1900) where I found my information is a member here and may just give us his thoughts.

[Buck]

Joel,
I would agree, that patch box is distintive.
Buck

[eastwind]

I agree that unique patchbox finial is similar to Carl George's work, and it does have a later Berks like trigger guard. But the flat comb and hard knuckle are not the usual Berks County stock profile, albeit seen more often in later guns.  I see it has the brass sliver above and below the lid itself---another rarely seen Berks County trait - except with Carl George and some other George family gunsmiths  (Henry, Carl (Charles), Jacob and Jacob, Jr.) So even though it does not scream "Berks" - I also lean toward it being made by one of the family George (aka Gorg) gunsmiths who moved away from the more typical Berks "Roman nose" profile - but which one?

The heavy target barrel would be a good project to remove and see if a name is underneath. The George's used a lot of barrels from Sholb and William Pannebecker II, which might add some weight to a George family attribution.
Patrick Hornberger

[Ranger Canoe]

I have pulled the barrel. It has no markings and is shiny on the bottom. It has  three brass dovetailed lugs that pins slide through to hold the stock and barrel together. The sights also look old. It may have a newer barrel fitted to the stock and original hardware although nothing looks like it has been banged around or refitted including the stock. No markings in the patch box either. A gun dealer who is knowledgeable in our area said to look behind the butt plate, but the brass screws have no damage and I do not want to be the  excited little school boy that messes them up.

[Hungry Horse]

 My question for the rest of you, (Ranger Canoe) has graciously allowed me to examine the gun, and he has heard my speculations, is why isn't the barrel crowned? With no crown, and no provision for a false muzzle, or socket starter, I would think this gun would be hard to load without damaging the patch.

                        Hungry Horse


                           

[Buck]

Patrick,
Restock?
Buck

[Don Stith]

My question for the rest of you, (Ranger Canoe) has graciously allowed me to examine the gun, and he has heard my speculations, is why isn't the barrel crowned? With no crown, and no provision for a false muzzle, or socket starter, I would think this gun would be hard to load without damaging the patch.

                        Hungry Horse


                           

Taper tailed bullet. No patch. Would not be the first I have seen

[Hungry Horse]

Don;

  Would that work with a 1 in 48" twist? The rifling in this barrel is very deep, I mean like an eighth of an inch deep. Besides, you would still need some type of starter with a elongated bullet to get it going straight down the barrel, and there is no provision for aligning such a starter. The concentric rings cut in the muzzle would indicate to me that this barrel hasn't been shortened. This gun has way more questions than answers.

                                Hungry Horse

[David R. Pennington]

Hard to tell from the photo but it looks like there is a slight step in height on the lands just in for a fraction at the muzzle, or am I seeing things?

[JTR]

Crowned? Hmmm, from my experience, Kentucky style rifles don't usually have a crowned muzzle. Just cut off flat like this one. Assuming this would be considered a late style kentucky rifle, or maybe a western trails gun given the short barrel. Maybe those old guys didn't shoot as tight a ball/patch combo as is used today...

Also, if the barrel is 1 3/8" across the flats, that has to be a Big bore! I'd see the gun as a hefty rifle capable of firing a stout charge at a big mean critter!

Neat rifle, and thanks for posting the pictures!

John   

[Hungry Horse]

JTR;

  She's .40 cal. with a 1 in 48" twist, and rifling like deep cut corn rows. She ain't no frontier rifle. She's a match gun for sure.

                       Hungry Horse

[JCKelly]

. . . butt plate, but the brass screws have no damage . . .

Brass screws?  Dunno when people started using brass screws but most 19th century things, e.g. rifles, pistol boxes, have iron screws.

[Don Stith]

Obviously I don't have it in my hands. But, it looks like the grooves are filed deeper at the muzzle. Look closely at the groove depth about 1/4 inch to 3/8 in. down the bore. Used to have one just like it that shot great with a 45 cal pistol bullet.

[blaksmth]

  My Dad , when he was building rifles would take a square needle file, and file all the groves at the muzzle on an angle towards the outside of the barrel .the bore looked  like this but somewhat more pronounced, He called this a PATCH FOLDER, to help with loading the ball.

 They worked real well, I remember when we would sight the rifle in he would take a needle file with us and if rifle didnt shoot quite right he would file a little more. before moving the sights.