Author Topic: Swiss powder?  (Read 14577 times)

Offline Hungry Horse

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Swiss powder?
« on: February 23, 2013, 04:09:32 AM »
 What is you learned gentlemen's opinion of Swiss powder? I bought some today from an estate sale, and wondered what you guys thought of it? Most of it was 1-1/2F. How does this compare with Goex, and what granulation is comparable? I checked the internet and found it is quite a bit more expensive than Goex.

                  Hungry Horse

Offline pathfinder

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 04:32:55 AM »
I don't measure my groups with a micrometer, and I noticed no difference in cleaning,so I go with good 'ole made here Goex!
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Candle Snuffer

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2013, 05:07:27 AM »
I've never used the Swiss powder, but I have heard good things about it from those who do.  I'd say anytime you can pick up some black powder at a good price (don't know what you paid) it's worth getting. :)

Offline spiderman852

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2013, 06:13:14 AM »
If your not shooting Swiss, your not winning. Just my two cents.

Mike

2lookindown

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 07:01:53 AM »
how much is the Swiss powder ????

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2013, 07:56:33 AM »
  GOEX is around $17 and change per pound. Swiss will run $10.00 plus more than GOEX per pound the last time I checked.
                                                               Dan
                                                                 

Offline Habu

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2013, 08:30:05 AM »
Hungry Horse, in theory and by almost every report, Swiss is a better powder.  The info I got when purchasing some 1 1/2Fg was to follow the old recommendation for FFg: use it in .45 cal rifles or larger.  

If your not shooting Swiss, your not winning. Just my two cents.

By using a Franco-Germanic accent when speaking to my powderhorn, I managed to win three matches last year shooting Elephant.  I won a fourth while shooting the dregs from a dozen assorted powder cans from the shelf in my shop (I guess that was "EleGo DuHarvey" powder).  I only had time to shoot in four "real" matches last year, I'm not sure how shooting Swiss would have improved the outcome. 

« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 08:32:14 AM by Habu »

2lookindown

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2013, 08:47:29 AM »
I guess I can throw the ballistic coefficient chase out the window and just shoot anything.... wow  ;D ;D ;D

Offline Habu

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2013, 09:17:08 AM »
It only works if you get the accent right, you want the powder to think it is Swiss.   :D

More seriously, I do think Swiss is a better powder.  But like every shooter, I have to weigh the potential for improvement against a known load that works very well in my rifle.  (The EleGo DuHarvey experiment was done largely as a joke.  I was fortunate to guess a reduced load that gave me a similar POI at 100 yards, else I'd have hit nothing but dirt.  As it was, I dropped points I shouldn't have.)  When I run out of Elephant (and can't scrounge any more amongst my shooting friends), I'll have to switch powders--probably to Goex, but who knows?


Offline Keb

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2013, 02:32:45 PM »
My long range shooter friends swear by it. They say you use less and it doesn't foul as bad as GOEX. One guy told me he uses 85 grains Swiss compared to 100 GOEX. These boys ain't plinkin at 15 to 25 yards neither. They're throwin a bullet 1000 yards at a 6' diameter target, cleaning between shots and hitting with accuracy. I believe them boys are telling the truth about Swiss powder.

Paul Griffith

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 03:48:44 PM »
Probably the top ten at the York next month will all be shootin Swiss. The cost is always brought up as a concern. So here's my take on it. 130$ for gas. 22$ case of beer. 45$ decent jug. 147$ lost wages for the day off. 70$ for my share of the rent, 156$ resturant food, 35$ to enter the match, AND finally 7.50$ extra for per pound for the cost of Swiss. If I shoot 14 shoots at the match thats 1.65$.

A first place York trophy on the wall....priceless

Paul

2lookindown

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2013, 05:25:02 PM »
KEB, Where do you live ? I'm at Hillsboro... I do believe that shooting the best does work... I won the Grand American Trap shoot in 2004.... 3738 of us in that shoot that day and a one eyed hilljack came out on top... I shot and registered targets all year on same load I was going to shoot at the Grand.... It works if you are consistent with everything you do....

Offline Herb

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2013, 08:00:42 PM »
There is no factory or importer loading data for Swiss powders.  There are three granulations I have tested, 3F, 2F and 1 1/2F.  I think there may be a finer priming powder, too.  Here is what I found.  With a 100-grain measure that holds that exact weighed amount of Goex 2F, in my .58 flintlock Hawken I built, and a roundball, that gives 1630 fps.  But that same measure (gently poured full, not shaken or tapped) holds 119.5 grains of Swiss 1 1/2, which averages 1660 fps.  The weight of Swiss 1 1/2 to equal Goex 2F velocity, 1630 fps, is 112 grains.  My Goex cost me $15 per pound at Fort Bridger Rendezvous last fall, 7000 grains per pound divided by 100 grains is 70 shots per pound at 21 cents per shot.  I got the Swiss 1 1/2 at Upper Missouri River Trading Co. in Crofton, NE last June for $27 per pound.  So this cost 43 cents per shot to equal Goex 2F velocity, or double.  Yes, it is clean burning, but only until about 110 grains in my .58, and then it fouls badly.  If I shoot 120 grains, I cannot get a ball down after 3 or 4 shots.  So I do not use it for elk hunting loads.   The Swiss powders are very good, but so is Goex.   What caliber rifle will you use it in?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 04:54:23 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2013, 10:13:42 PM »
My long range shooter friends swear by it. They say you use less and it doesn't foul as bad as GOEX. One guy told me he uses 85 grains Swiss compared to 100 GOEX. These boys ain't plinkin at 15 to 25 yards neither. They're throwin a bullet 1000 yards at a 6' diameter target, cleaning between shots and hitting with accuracy. I believe them boys are telling the truth about Swiss powder.
Yes they are.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2013, 10:19:12 PM »
Never having used Swiss I can't really comment on it's qualities.  It is alleged to give higher velocities though not everyone reports that.  A good powder is a good powder.  If you are very competitive and think in terms of .1", cost is not a factor.  If like most of us you just want fine accuracy & velocity at the best price, Goex, Jack's Battle Powder, Diamondback and yes, even old Elephant among others just might be your ticket.  I like to shoot a lot and seldom compete and go for the cheapest that gives me all the above.
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Offline Keb

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2013, 11:09:05 PM »

xring2245

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 04:47:42 AM »
I have found where SWISS is much better than GOEX - black powder cartridge and small calibers in my flintlock.  I shoot in the N-SSA and use a Henry in .44 WCF.  I have been able to shoot much tighter groups using SWISS.  My .32 cal. flinter also shoots tighter groups with SWISS and I don't need to clean as often.  I have gone 20 shots before cleaning at the range.  GOEX needs to be cleaned every 2-3 shots.  Of course, when hunting, I always wipe between shots when I can.

FWIW...

James

2lookindown

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 07:14:22 PM »
I'm at Hillsboro...
Georgetown

Maybe we can hook up some time ... I'm going to build a place to shoot here at the house... I also have a good place to hold a shoot up at the HighLand County Coon Hunters... We could hold a big shoot up there...

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 08:46:58 PM »
Never having used Swiss I can't really comment on it's qualities.  It is alleged to give higher velocities though not everyone reports that.  A good powder is a good powder.  If you are very competitive and think in terms of .1", cost is not a factor.  If like most of us you just want fine accuracy & velocity at the best price, Goex, Jack's Battle Powder, Diamondback and yes, even old Elephant among others just might be your ticket.  I like to shoot a lot and seldom compete and go for the cheapest that gives me all the above.

Any powder coated with graphite was never considered "good powder" back in the day. In fact the British gov't would reject any powder with a graphite coating since it was a cheap way to make low quality powder look shiny.
Re-enactor powder?
Its made (or culled) for people who only care about making smoke and noise.

Dan
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mmprwarner

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 04:23:59 AM »
Ok Swiss for me. cleans easier. It drastically reduce the size of my groups. Any attempts to go back to something just because it cost a little less have met with negative results and to borrow a line from a couple of other post-if you're not shooting Swiss are not a winner and over 15 shot match I wouldn't want to think  I spent $50-$200 in gasoline to get somewhere to shoot and back, then let a dollar and a half to two dollars. Given the way of a good performance.

Offline WaterFowl

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2013, 05:31:48 AM »
I noticed a positive difference use Swiss null B for prime.
Groups shrunk in smaller calibers.

Offline Habu

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2013, 09:31:27 PM »
If claims are going to be made of the superiority of Swiss over all other powders, perhaps it might be a good idea to specify in what applications/types of shooting that powder is so superior that it is necessary in order to win.  Examples of this might be the long range shooters mentioned by Keb: many, perhaps even most, of them have adopted Swiss.  Another might be the improvements in accuracy and shooting in smallbores noted by Xring2245 and Waterfowl. 

No doubt, due to the superior nature of the powder, most previous records have been beaten by shooters using Swiss.  Examples of this would also be welcome. 

It certainly doesn't seem to be superior for all applications, as many seem to be claiming.  In my ongoing 200 yard experiments, I experienced decreased accuracy (relative to Elephant and old lots of Goex), and the same fouling problem noted by Herb.  I do think these problems could be remedied through experimentation, but see little reason to do so at this point. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 03:18:55 AM »
The only problem I have seen with Swiss is some fouling issues with charges over about 100 grains with 58 calibers. I did not discover this until I rebarreled a rifle to 58 for a friend and test fired it.
Otherwise it is more consistent than the other and its more consistent from lot to lot. Something that is sorely lacking in many powders.
I can assure you that if Swiss did not work better some of the guys I shoot with would certainly not use it.
I would also point out that some use 1.5f in MLs with good results.
If you are having problems with Swiss there could be several things. One could be the particular barrel. The other could be powder charge or granulation.

The basic theme is that its simply a better powder. No graphite. Its made very carefully and has better charcoal with the possible exception of the lower grade European powders but they are not as carefully made.
Its like wiping in a serious competition. As a friend says "You don't have to wipe, but you have to wipe to win".
RB rifles are not as finicky as bullet guns and BPCR (Swiss required a serious rethink from processes used with GOEX to make it work its best in BPCRs where is now the standard for match winners). So using Swiss might require a change in some less obvious things when switching from some other powder in a ML. All I did was drop 10 grains of powder in my 54. This gave at least as much velocity and eliminated the fouling near the breech. Yeah sometimes I shoot without wiping. I don't wipe when hunting for example.
My 16 bore rifle with a 30" barrel including the Nock breech shows virtually no fouling at the muzzle after being fired with 140 gr of FF Swiss.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Kermit

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 06:43:03 PM »
And you can apparently actually buy Swiss. Powder Inc has had trouble keeping Goex in stock with the current rage of panic hoarding of anything shooting related. They seem to have an adequate supply of Swiss. I'll take powder I can actually buy at a slightly higher price than powder I can't buy at a lower price.
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Offline Frizzen

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Re: Swiss powder?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 10:25:06 PM »
We switched to Swiss several years ago. No complaints from the wife that it cost more. With the money
Spent to go to Friendship and the time, I asked her if she wanted to shoot under a handicap using
Goex. She said NO!  She has won the women's pistol championship 8 times now. We get 500 shots
From a 1lb can. I bought 50 lbs when it was 18.00 a lb. You can shoot all day and the guns barely even
Get dirty. Just a wipe with a wet paper towel, dry, and a little WD-40 and you good until next time.
The Pistol Shooter