Goex feedback

[Jim Thomas]

Received from our club secretary.    Chris C  is also a ALR member and a darn good shot.   

http://goexpowder.com/

[Roger Fisher]

Now, that is interesting!!

I would love to see the facts on which Goex claims the Black is no more of a hazard than the smokeless. I do agree.  In fact gasoline is much worse but that is another subject.

All sportsmen that use the black have found it getting very expensive due to the haz mat and the dealer's cost to meet the storage specs and record keeping etc.

[mykeal]

Goex started this campaign earlier this last year; my first encounter was on another muzzleloading forum in April. The members of the other forum wrote to Goex and offered/suggested a letter writing campaign, but Goex declined and asked that the correspondence be sent directly to them instead. I've heard no more about what they've done since.

I'm sure part of what Goex wants to do is get the OSHA-generated MSDS corrected. It's full of erroneous data and seriously in need of some honest scientific data.

[BuffaloGun]

Very interesting. I can certainly get behind that campaign.
A good reason to support Goex, in addition to their good product.

[Mad Monk]

The story I get is that GOEX wants the explosive classification of black powder changed to that of flammable solid.

Black powder is shipped in 25 pound cases via common carrier under a DOT variance that GOEX had pushed for back in the 1970's at the prompting of the NMLRA.

That variance is for shipping purposes only to those who use it for cultural purposes or sporting purposes.

Once into a gun shop it goes back to being an explosive.

Take Cabelas at Hamburg as an example.
If you ask to buy black powder the clerk asks how many pounds and what granulation.  Then heads to the back where he pulls it out of a 25 pound capacity steel magazine.  You pay for it.  he bags it and you are on your way.
They cannot keep any cans where a prospective customer might handle one.  They must place it so that a prospective customer cannot even see the cans.
So after getting two pounds of BP I turn around and walk down an aisle.  The shelves in that aisle were packed with bottles of Pyrodex, Triple Seven, American Pioneer Powder and Black Mag 3.  These you can just pick up and head to the counter to pay for them.

The govt. concept being that these BP subs are relatively harmless while bp is treacherous.

Now the ascorbic acid powder producers, American Pioneer Powder and Black Mag 3 claim that these powders may be used in a flintlock arm with an acceptable degree of reliability because their ignition temperatures are not that much higher than black powder.  A few years back I had checked this out for GOEX when they first started shipping Pinnacle Powder made for them by American Pioneer Powder Company.  So ignition temperature with black powder does not make it more touchy than the ascorbic acid powders when it comes to accidental ignition.

Black powder is considered to be dangerous because of its rapid "open burning" rate.  Meaning that without confinement it is able to burn rapidly.
When I had first looked at Hodgdon's Triple Seven powder I looked at its open burn rate since it is based on a dinitro compound.  Made a pile on the wife's garden bench and put a heated wire to it.  AWESOME!!!  Every bit as wild as a good bp in open burn.

The tests that get black powder the bad label are arbitrary at best.  But GOEX does not stand a chance in getting the classification changed.  There is a segment of the ATF that wants black powder out of our hands.  They would like to see its use confined to fireworks companies, quarrying operations and military only.

Pyrodex ships as a flammable solid.  Some years back a granite quarrying company tried to use it in blasting out granite blocks.  They had an accident that resulted in a fatality.  So the various govt. agencies show up.  And really hammer the company because they did not handle the Pyrodex as if it were a blasting explosive like BP or detacord, etc. 
So to one govt. agency it can be one thing and then something else to another agency.

Right now the issue is how long we will be able to afford to buy black powder.  They have been unable to ban it so it appears that the game is to simply price it out of our reach.  The hazardous classification plays into this pricing it out of our reach.

[Daryl]

I tried Black Mag 3 in my flinter several years ago - had a devil of a time getting that charge to go off.  'Sometimes' advertising is erroneous- what's new.

[Candle Snuffer]

It would be nice to see Goex able to get black powder reclassified, but I doubt it'll ever happen.  However, I'm willing to do my part where I can to help out in this effort.

[roundball]

They must not be in much of a hurry...thats been on their site for well over a year...I mentioned that they should consider putting up a special Email account for people to send their memos to...suggested they'd get huge volumes of replies compared to the number that would come from people having to write a letter, get an envelope, address & stamp it, then mail it, etc...even volunteered to help pushing a letter writing campaign through various forums, etc.
They thanked me and said they'd look into it...fast forward to now...no change...I don't think they get the whole 21st century thing...

[Mad Monk]

As of Jan. 1, 2009 Goex is now owned by the Hodgdon Powder Company according to a posting on a cowboy action board.  A posting by Mike Daly, of Hodgdon, who is known as "Birdshot".

GOEX had been up for sale for some years now.

[roundball]

Interesting...nothing yet on either website...
I sent emails to both asking for verification and what, if anything, this might mean about the continued longevitiy / availability of Goex black powder, etc...

[Mad Monk]

What it means is that the production facility is no longer at the mercy of some investment company with no real interest in the business as we see it from our end.

In 2002 the New York investment company that had owned GOEX since Jan. of 2000 tried to sell the business to WANO, in Germany.  WANO did not want to pay the price asked for the business.  When that failed WANO was asked if they would produce powder for GOEX.  WANO wanted no parts of that deal either.

Hodgdon really will not make any changes in GOEX initially.
The plant in Louisiana is in something of a bad position.  They have only one man now who really has any lengthy experience in producing black powder and he is getting up in years.  They have been training some guy who has about 6 or 7 years experience in the plant.
When GOEX closed Moosic and went to Minden there were really only three people with any real hands on experience in black powder production.  One was killed in a wheel mill explosion in 1998 and another died about a year or two ago.

Any changes down there might simply be one involving office workers.


What we are watching in this is two companies who will dominate the propellant powders business in the U.S. in the future.  These being Hodgdon and Western Powder.

A few years ago Nirochem sold the IMR business to Hodgdon which gave them smokeless powder production.  Now they have black powder production as part of their operation.

I am waiting to see how this plays out with GOEX's Pinnacle Powder bp sub.  Made for GOEX by American Pioneer Powder Company which competes with Hodgdon's subs on the market.

GOEX's big income is military black powder.  They get about $30 per pound for it.  So it really boosts the profits.  As we pull out of the mideast sandbox they business will slack off.  Will they crank up the price we pay as a result??

[roundball]

What it means is that the production facility is no longer at the mercy of some investment company with no real interest in the business as we see it from our end.

That's good news right there...

[Harnic]

I'm planning to build a caplock rifle now BECAUSE of the over-regulation of bp.  None of the replica powders will work reliably in a flintlock, so if I'm going to continue to shoot a muzzle loader I'll need something that works with the available propellants.  It'll be a shame to hang all our beautiful flintlocks up for display only, but I can see that day coming... sooner rather than later.

[roundball]

I'm planning to build a caplock rifle now BECAUSE of the over-regulation of bp.  None of the replica powders will work reliably in a flintlock, so if I'm going to continue to shoot a muzzle loader I'll need something that works with the available propellants.  It'll be a shame to hang all our beautiful flintlocks up for display only, but I can see that day coming... sooner rather than later.

Food for thought:

Don't know how old you are or how much you shoot...but when I switched from caplocks to Flintlocks years ago, I had several pounds of Pyrodex RS left over from a Walmart ewnd of year sale at $8/pound.

I found that duplex loads...what I call 'layered loads'...work perfectly in a Flintlock.
My smallest powder measure happended to be 20grns, so I'd use a 20grn igniter charge of Goex 3F downbore first, followed by 30/40/50grns RS that I wanted to shoot that particular day...100% consistent, reliable, accurate, etc...used up all those pounds of RS in my Flintlocks at the range.

If you put up a case of Goex 3F as igniter charges, that's almost 9000 shots...and if make a smaller measure and just use a 15grn igniter charge that's almost 12,000 shots in a Flintlock...2 cases in your house, 2 cases at a relative's house, etc...you get the idea...you can keep right on shooting Flintlocks...and for me, if I'm going to shoot muzzleloaders year round, I'm going to shoot Flintlocks and the igniter charge approach works perfectly.

[doug]

GOEX's big income is military black powder.  They get about $30 per pound for it.  So it really boosts the profits.  As we pull out of the mideast sandbox they business will slack off.  Will they crank up the price we pay as a result??

      I am curious; how does the military use black powder?  I am under the impression that it was primarily used as an igniting charge in large naval cannon.

cheers Doug

[roundball]

Hand grenades for one...

[Dphariss]

It is used in fuzes in all sorts of things, including handgrenades.
It was was used as a booster and still so far as I know even in cartridge artillery 105 etc. If I am properly informed the 16 guns used about 1 pound tot he bag.
So far as its being used as the bursting charge or actual propellant no.
It was used in little bags that could be placed in practice grenades to provide a "marker" of where the thing actually was when it went off.

Dan

[Mad Monk]

Numerous military uses.

When mixed with calcium carbonate (ground limestone) it is used for flare rockets.
Used as an intermediate primer in almost anything over 39 mm.  Used in rounds in high-altitude gun systems where low temperatures and low pressures make someless charges difficult to ignite and slow to burn.
Use in some munnitions dispensing systems.
A lot is used in salute cannons.

[Harnic]

Food for thought:

Don't know how old you are or how much you shoot...but when I switched from caplocks to Flintlocks years ago, I had several pounds of Pyrodex RS left over from a Walmart ewnd of year sale at $8/pound.

I found that duplex loads...what I call 'layered loads'...work perfectly in a Flintlock.
My smallest powder measure happended to be 20grns, so I'd use a 20grn igniter charge of Goex 3F downbore first, followed by 30/40/50grns RS that I wanted to shoot that particular day...100% consistent, reliable, accurate, etc...used up all those pounds of RS in my Flintlocks at the range.

If you put up a case of Goex 3F as igniter charges, that's almost 9000 shots...and if make a smaller measure and just use a 15grn igniter charge that's almost 12,000 shots in a Flintlock...2 cases in your house, 2 cases at a relative's house, etc...you get the idea...you can keep right on shooting Flintlocks...and for me, if I'm going to shoot muzzleloaders year round, I'm going to shoot Flintlocks and the igniter charge approach works perfectly.

I'm not young anymore Roundball (58), but I like to shoot at least once a week 8 months of the year (too !@*%&@ cold here Nov thru Feb).  I also like to keep things simple, & 3 powder horns for pan prime, barrel prime, & main charge is getting cumbersome.  I suppose I could switch to 3f for my pan prime too, but it's noticeably slower with my lock.  When I got my first muzzle loader 32 years ago it was a caplock & I was "converted" to flint within a year by a purist acquaintance & never really gave them a fair try.  The rifle was one of those cheap Italian "Hawken" kits & had a very poor lock & tiny flash channels, so it was easy to get frustrated with.  I shoot a Ruger Old Army cap & ball revolver a lot now as well & really enjoy it, so I suspect a well made Hawken caplock ( I like Track's Bridger copy) would fit the bill nicely.  Your method of duplex loads would keep my flintlock shooting, but so would making my own powder.  I think the timing of all this is prophetic, I was looking for an excuse to build another rifle anyway!

[roundball]

"...I was looking for an excuse to build another rifle anyway! ..."

I heard that !
 

[Candle Snuffer]

I'm planning to build a caplock rifle now BECAUSE of the over-regulation of bp.  None of the replica powders will work reliably in a flintlock, so if I'm going to continue to shoot a muzzle loader I'll need something that works with the available propellants.  It'll be a shame to hang all our beautiful flintlocks up for display only, but I can see that day coming... sooner rather than later.

Hate to admit it, but I think you are probably right about this Harry.   It's getting so that it's becoming awful expensive to shoot any muzzle loading firearm.  Eventually the cost of replenishing one's depleting stock of, powder, patch, ball, cap, flint,,, sooner or later we'll catch up with all of us.

[William Worth]

Is there still commercial demand for BP for blasting?  I would think that would help support the market.

I have some "Blasting A" , Granulation 5FA.  My .45 really likes it, and therefor, so do I.

[Mad Monk]

The demand for blasting grade blacvk powder is now very small.  Used mainly to quary slate.

Gone from underground mining.

Granite quarries used mainly detacord to loosing large blocks from the quarry face.

The quantities sold for fireworks applications has dropped dramatically since 1990.  At first the fireworks users would simply remove the Chinese made lifting charges and replace that with GOEX or Elephant.  Then the Chinese sharpened their skills with the lifting charges so that business fell way off.

[Harnic]

I found that duplex loads...what I call 'layered loads'...work perfectly in a Flintlock.

Roundball, you got me thinking (not always a dangerous thing ) about using Pyrodex in my flintlock.  Did you ever try Pyrodex "P" as the main charge in your flintlock?  I wonder if the finer granulation would ignite through a White Lightening vent with a more generous 4f prime in the pan?  The price of caps is a pretty good deterrent to building a caplock rifle, over $6 a hundred in these parts now!  I do like your duplex idea on second thought, but if the finer grained P will ignite reliably that just saves an extra step.  S'posed to be warmer next week with no new snow, maybe the road to the gun club will get plowed out!

[roundball]

No, none of the subs are satisfactory in a flintlock...its not an issue of granulation, its one of ignition temperature...the subs just requires a higher temperture to get them ignited than BP requires, and the relatively weak pan flash usually is not enough to ignite the subs consistently / reliably...