Author Topic: Jos. Bogle Rifle  (Read 6945 times)

Offline David R. Pennington

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Jos. Bogle Rifle
« on: March 12, 2013, 03:27:33 AM »
Perhaps someone can help me with some details on my current build. On Joseph Bogle's rifles were octagon flats filed on ramrod thimbles? The pictures on the site of the Bogle rifle are great, but I can't quite make out the detail on the rammer pipes. Is the rear entry thimble longer than normal?
Also the barrel in the featured rifle is over 44" with 4 pipes. I'm using a 42" barrel, would it look ok with 4 pipes? 
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline bgf

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 08:29:48 AM »
Looks like plain pipes from the library (I can't remember from time I saw it), and the entry pipe is longer, but some of the people here have likely owned it and can correct me if I'm wrong and give you more detail.  I think 3 pipes (incl. entry) would look strange!  I did 4 on a 42" barrel, and I thought it looked fine.  They were a little bit shorter than normal to compensate, but not radically so.

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 04:18:59 PM »
The pictures of the Jos. Bogle rifle on the American Historical Services website do not depict the pipes in detail. 

http://americanhistoricservices.com/html/jos_bogle.html

If you email Mel Hankla he may be able to answer your question.  His email is on the contacts tab on the home page.  His site is a wonderful resource.

On the 3 versus 4 pipes question, you would lose only about 2/3" between pipes with a 42 inch barrel.  From the photo of the rifle, it appears that the lower forestock is a little on the long side on the original, but I didn't scale it.  If you want to incorporate as many details as possible, I'd go with 4 pipes.

Good luck and please post pictures as the build comes along.

Larry Luck

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 06:17:57 PM »
Thanks guys for the input. I will probably do 4 pipes, if I can work out the spacing. I have the barrel pinned already. I know you're supposed to plan all that ahead but...., I would rather do a longer barrel on this one but it is a surprise for my Dad and he's afraid of long barrels. I was going to go shorter but couldn't make myself cut off 3 or 4 inches of perfectly good barrel. It should hold well with 13/16 .45 and not be too heavy. I have a plan I got years ago from Log Cabin that looks like a representation of a Bogle rifle but is called a "Virginia" rifle. It shows octagon pipes on the drawing. The picture in the library is hard to read on the pipes but looks almost like the rear one is round with some grooves filed in. My build is of course not a copy but I would like to represent the style as best as my feeble ability allows.
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »
The thimbles do have flats filed in them as I recall.  The file work on the mounts on this rifle is all neatly done  - not overdone - just looks very efficient and confident)

Ron Borron's drawing (which is what you have from Log Cabin Shop) - does call it an Early Virginia Rifle.  Back when the drawing was done, Myron Carlson would copy rifle hardware and Ron would do the lind drawing to accopmany it and they would sell the plans and hardware together.  Sometimes Ron drew them exactly like the original, and some he modified to show the rifle with available locks that would work.  There are two versions of the drawings for this rifle - one with original lock and drop, and a later revised one where he modified it with a Durs Egg and took out a little drop. Myron mostly copied later Tennessee and North Carolina mountain rifles and I think that at the time they copied the Bogle its early appearance and dissimilarity to what we think of as the classic "mountain" rifle led them to speculate it might be a Virginia gun. I also recall at the time the owner did not want the maker's name revealed.   This was all, I beleive, before Wayne Elliot's great research and article (which you can see in the Virtual Museum) indicated the rifle was actually probably made in Tennessee.

This is also the only known rifle that I think everyone agrees was made by Joseph Bogle.  There are two others I know of - one in a private collection and one or two in Jerry Noble's books - that some say yes, some say no.  Some may have been made by the nephew, also named Joseph.

Guy

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 07:32:31 PM »
You might contact the current Joe Bogle, he has studied the original Bogle rifle in depth and replicated it several times in the last few years. He forges his own mounts as well.

He is a member of this board so you can look him up an PM him.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 06:33:28 AM by Eric Krewson »

Offline bgf

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2013, 01:34:20 AM »
Here's the best picture I could find of a thimble (scroll down to the last picture, a closeup of last thimble and muzzle):
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2011/09/cla-show-2011-photos_17.html
Looks like it could be very soft facets.  

Also, http://kentuckylongrifles.com/html/jos_bogle.html
Note "four octagon iron thimbles" in the description.

PS. Four thimbles makes for easier spacing, I think -- assuming three lugs ahead of the entry pipe and usually one behind.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 01:38:17 AM by bgf »

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2013, 11:29:15 PM »
bgf, thanks for the links. I'm still not 100% sure on the pipes. If they are faceted it is subtle. There are some photos there I hadn't seen with a lot of detail of other areas. Particularly rear sight. That is about the profile I used on my last rifle and I like it a lot. 
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Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 12:52:43 AM »
Dave, if you click on the CLA show pic's they will enlarge.  With a Mac I enlarged them to full size, and they look to be round, no facets.  If i recall they are indeed round, but that was a couple of years ago..  An email to Mel hankla should get you the answer.  It's one great rifle.

Bill
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2013, 02:01:43 AM »
Guys - no disrespect to others opinions but my recollection is they are faceted - have handled the rifle several times and was surprised at the time to see they are indeed faceted although  they appear smooth in photos.  As I said, the file finish work on this rifle is very neatly and efficiently done,  but not overdone.

Maybe Wayne will see this and can confirm  - he wrote the article and knows the piece well.

Guy

Offline G-Man

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2013, 02:26:16 AM »
The barrel keys are also unique and don't show up well in photos - as I recall the heads are a half ellipse with pointed ends - i.e. like a football sliced on half with the top half missing, if that makes sense.  There are no escutcheon plates.

Probably more than you wanted to know but they are part of the charm of this rifle

Guy

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2013, 06:18:05 AM »
I found several pictures Joe took at Norris of the original rifle. The pipes appear to have dim facets.



« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 06:20:03 AM by Eric Krewson »

Offline heinz

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2013, 02:15:07 PM »
As Guy noted, In person the facets are obvious.  The thimble metal is thin and the file file work is efficiently done.  I think the rifle is a remarkable example of what a frontier smith could do in a good workmanlike manner.  This is not a rifle meant to show off your opulence to the neighbors.
kind regards, heinz

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2013, 09:24:42 PM »
Heinz, great pictures with exactly the detail I needed! Thanks again. That is interesting detail also on barrel wedge on lower picture, looks banana shaped.
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2013, 09:27:30 PM »
Sorry Eric I got so excited when I saw the pictures I gave the wrong guy credit. thanks again everyone for the input.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline WElliott

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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2013, 03:05:33 AM »
I apologize for being late coming into this discussion.  Guy and the others who said the thimbles are facated are quite correct.  I noted the same in my article on the Bogle rifle, originally published in the now-defunct Gun Report, and posted in the Virtual Museum.  David R., when you finish your project, be sure to share pictures with us on ALR.  It is a great, early, southern rifle to copy. 
Wayne Elliott
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Re: Jos. Bogle Rifle
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2013, 04:48:04 AM »
David; good luck with your build of the bogle rifle. the feel and the lines of his beautiful rifle are so pleasing to look at and also a pleasure to shoot.
  i have some of my original notes and measurements from inspecting the rifle at norris in 2009. if you likeemail me at -- joseb42@msn.com-- i'll give you my phone # and you can feel free to call. you can see a couple pics of my first bogle build if you just type in (new bogle gun) on this forum.   yours  joe bogle