Green River Forge Ltd.

[Hungry Horse]

 How come we never hear anything about this fine old company? Back in the day I used them a lot. They were about the only trade gun manufacture other than good old Curly. They made some classic rifles, and pistols, that weren't the run of the mill. They also made some trade guns for museum displays, that were mistaken for originals. I still have one of their 1979 catalogs that I saved just because it had such fine artwork in it.


                      Hungry Horse

[oldarcher]

It's kind of funny that I just read your post and was recently going through my old Muzzle Blasts from 1979 (?) and read an ad for a Hawken by this company. I did not know that they made rifles. I may have gotton confused but I thought that they made knives, different companies with similar names? The name is similar to the very popular GRRW so? In any event I have never seen a rifle made by these people, and I always look at any Hawken that I see at shoots, shops, Friendship....they must not have made very many???

[Dan'l 1946]

  I seem to recall that they had a trade gun and a trade pistol. Didn't they also make a half stock flint rifle called the Astorian? And maybe a plains or mountain style percussion rifle called the Oregon rifle or some such? I don't remember an actual Hawken, though.
                                                                                   Dan

[Hungry Horse]

Dan'l46;

  You are right on the money, There was no Hawken rifle offered in the catalog I have, which says not to use after 1979. The pistol was called the factors pistol. They offered rifles, trade guns, and a pistol, along with clothing patterns, and a few other small items.
 I was told a couple of years ago, that the clothing part of this company is now located somewhere on the north coast of California.
 The trade guns used the old Lott lock, but had new made hand forged springs, and an acid etched, or engraved circle fox in place of the Lott name on the plate. Around the rear curve of the cock on the plate was etched GRF in cursive script.
 If you look at the tacked up trade gun inside the cover of R.L.Wilson's book The Peacemakers" with some serious magnification, you can see the GRF on the lock plate. A closer look at the hammer, between the jaws, on the upright thumb piece, will reveal a casting vent sprue that was never removed. Trade gun locks in the old days were not investment cast.

                     Hungry Horse

[oldarcher]

I found the ad that I was thinking of, and it is from Feb & March1979 and shows a "longrifle". They said that they were from Oregon, next to the shop known as Oregon Gun Works. They state that they make rifles of different sizes and bores and also they mention Fowling Pieces.  That may be why I didn't see them as I was in Minnesota then and GRRW then Sharon were the deseriable Hawkens. The flint longrifle was not as popular as the Hawken in that area at that time, or at least with the club at White Bear Lake that I shot at once in a while. I was mistaken, the ad was not for a Hawken, it was for a longrifle.
Good information, thanks.

[JoeG]

I built one of their trade gun kits around 1976 and also used one of their pistol stocks and belt hook  to make my own version of a trappers  pistol

If you look at the tacked up trade gun inside the cover of R.L.Wilson's book The Peacemakers" with some serious magnification, you can see the GRF on the lock plate. A closer look at the hammer, between the jaws, on the upright thumb piece, will reveal a casting vent sprue that was never removed. Trade gun locks in the old days were not investment cast.

I think that  gun was built by Harve Hilderbrand, I remember handlng it  at the  1982 Western National Rendezvous held at Hickerson Park

It surprised me to see it listed as an original chiefs grade in Wilson's book as the GRF was very visible

[Hungry Horse]

Joe;

  It kinda made me question, all the other fur trade period guns in the book, that I hadn't seen in some other place. After finding the markings on the lock, I took a long look, at all the other aspects of the gun. The trade silver on it has a definite green cast to it, which indicates its German silver, rather than sterling. Also, most trade silver used as decorations on guns, actually started out as brooches, which have a specific cut out for the tung, that anchors them onto the clothing. These examples do not. I was very disappointed, since I was studying this trade gun with the idea of making a replica of it.

                  Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 The Green River Forge Ltd. rifles did use GRRW barrels. There may have been a connection between these companies with such similar names.

                   Hungry Horse

[JoeG]

I have the same reservations when I look at anything else in any of his authors books.
There is a Leman full stock in that book  that looks just  like one that Scotty helms built back in the mid 80's , but I can't be sure if it his or the one he copied.

I suspect that we will see a lot more so called  'originals' in future  gun books written by collectors


Green River Forge produced some great stuff, I still see quite a few of their trade guns around

Bill Brandenburg  worked for GRRW and then later became involved with GRF about the time GRRW closed down but I don't know of any other connection besides suppling barrels to GRF

[Hungry Horse]

 I wound up with a couple of GRF trade gun locks after switching them out for the Davis replacement locks, for customers.
  My old chiefs grade, thirty inch barreled, trade gun, had a Lott lock in it, and shot fine. I gather it was the exception. the rule seemed to be that the frizzens were soft, and needed case hardening, to make them spark. Some of these Lott locks have pretty good geometry, and others don't. Turner Kirkland said, that the companies in Italy that were making replica guns, and parts, traded some of these lock, and parts, molds around, so when molds got worn and needed remaking, they weren't always made the same way.
 Of the three Lott locks I own, two have pretty good geometry, and frizzens that take a case pretty good. The other one is marked by GRF and has poor geometry and a frizzen I have no idea how to make work. It is either butter soft, or hard as glass, drawing the temper seems to be all, or nothing, with this piece of steel.

                       Hungry Horse

[JoeG]

I know the Lott Lock had problems ,
but it was pretty much the only trade gun lock available at the time
I was sure happy when Davis started making their lock
I must of got a good one from GRF
I shot it with out problems for about 8 years and then it quit sparking
I refaced the frizzen with a piece of power hacksaw blade and its been fine ever since

[Hungry Horse]

Joe;

  Did you ever try any of GRF's forge fire flints? I didn't, and always regretted not at least trying them. I heard good, and bad, about them.

                        Hungry Horse

[JoeG]

I had a friend that bought one and it  sure put out the  sparks
but it also ate the face of his frizzen
He saved it for hunting trips only

[Blacksmoke]

I had an GRF "Astorian" half stock back in the 80's. I got it second hand from an acquaintance who had broken the stock through the wrist.  It had a "Haddaway" flintlock on it - sparked like the dickens!  I think the barrel was a "Sharon" but it had been shot out so I  replaced the barrel with one that I hand cut with my own style of rifling.  Now a friend of mine has it and as far as I know it still shoots as good as the day I re- barreled it.   Hugh Toenjes

[westbj2]

JoeG.

"I have the same reservations when I look at anything else in any of his authors books.
There is a Leman full stock in that book  that looks just  like one that Scotty helms built back in the mid 80's , but I can't be sure if it his or the one he copied."

There are undoubtedly some guns with 'problems' illustrated and as you may be aware, Mr. Wilson had some  problems as well in the time period the book was published.  If your reference to the Leman full stock is the one shown on pp14 and is listed as Leman Lancaster 1840, I can tell you a story about that gun. It is real!!!

About 5 years prior to 'The Peacemakers' being published, an elderly gentleman came into the shop carrying two rifles marked "Leman Lancaster" with an 1840 date on the locks.   Both of them were virtually new and unfired.
Initially, I was concerned that they were made up by some one in the 1950's but dis-assembly and close examination convinced me that they were real. I ended up buying the guns and subsequently sold them to an advanced collector who ran in the same circles as Mr. Wilson.  My guess is that this is how one of them came to be pictured in the book.
The owner said the family was originally from Eastern Pa. and they had been in the family for many generations but ending up in Minnesota when they moved here in the late 19th century.

Jim Westberg

[greybeard]

If my memory serves me right the fellow that started GRF was  George Straight.
Not sure if my spelling is corect for his name.
They operated out of Bellingham ,  Washington state.  Very nice man.
      Bob Reader

[adkmountainken]

going to bump this one back up as i recently purchased a GRF Trade Gun and will have it shortly! i already know the Lott lock was taken out but sadly enough replaced with a Pedersoli lock which i will also replace with a Davis lock.  only thing i do not care for other then the lock is it is a 50 cal smoothie wish it were a .62 and i will post pic's when i get it.

[Hungry Horse]

Adkmountainken;

 I’ve discovered those smaller bore trade guns shoot a pretty tight pattern compared to 20’s, 16’s, and 12’s. That being said, they’re pattern are long, so it take some getting used to when wing shooting. They are great turkey medicine, and pretty good on squirrels too.

  Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 One other little piece of information for those of you like myself that just love important historical information, that somehow escaped the history books. The gunsmith at Astoria in 1813, and 1814 was one Alexander Carson, brother of Kit, and a mountain in his own right. In fact there is some evidence that he went up river with the Corp of Discovery with Lewis and Clark. He left Astoria when Hudson Bay took it over, and died a free trapper at the hands of Indians. So, if there was an Astorian gun, it likely would have been built by Carson.

  Hungry Horse

[Roger B]

The "Forge Fire" flints were actually ceramic and were made from worn cutters or grinders from some type of heavy machinery. I imagine they would eat frizzens. I wonder how it might have worked with those flints mated up to a "moon metal" (depleted uranium) faced frizzen? Might have welded something.
Roger B.

[Mtn Meek]

Since this thread has been resurrected, I thought I would post some pictures of the Green River Forge guns I've acquired since the original thread was started.

This North West trade gun has 36-3/8" barrel and is 20 gauge smoothbore.







That may be one of the "Forge Fire" flints in the photo above.  It came with the gun when I acquired it.  The lock is a "Lott" lock with the name in front of cock filed off and the "Circle Fox" acid etched in its place.  The leaf engraving was also removed on the tail and "GRF" etched in script.

Here is my Hudson's Bay Factor's Pistol.  It has a 7-1/8" straight octagon barrel with a hooked breech, and is also a 20 gauge smoothbore.





It may also have a "Forge Fire" flint.

The pistol was made by Frank Straight's employee, Nicholas Watts.  Watts evidently specialized in doing the lock modifications for the company.  This pistol lock started out as a CVA flintlock.  Watts reshaped the tail of the lock plate, removed most of the cast-in engraving, added a sliding tumbler safety, semi-rainproofed the pan, added a roller on the frizzen, and polished the internals.  It’s hardly recognizable as a CVA lock shown below.



Both of these guns were made when Frank Straight owned the company in Bellevue, Washington.

I put together a brief history of the company from magazine ads, articles, and correspondence with ex-employees.  You can find it at this link http://grrw.org/green-river-forge/.  It documents the change of ownership over the years and the various places the company was located.  It also details the confusing connections between GRF and GRRW that are mentioned in several posts in this thread.

[ScottH]

Phil,
 Could you post a picture of the (for lack of a better term) muzzle cap on the 20 gauge trade gun.
That looks interesting. Thanks for posting these pics. 

[Mtn Meek]

Here ya go, Scott.