telescopic rifles

[Hungry Horse]

 Back in the late 19th century Northern California became enthralled with telescopic sights on muzzleloading rifles. Famous gunsmiths, and locally famous shooters made local headline with their shooting feats, and advancements in scope technology. I recently acquired a replica 4X15, long, brass, tube scope. I have plans to build one of these regionally significant rifles to use in a local living history presentation, spearheaded by my gun club, and the local historical society.
 The problem I have run into, is this scope is of reasonable quality, and probably is better, and clearer than the originals, but the mounting system would have to buy an upgrade, to be classified as junk. Do any of you have any suggestions on how to build some traditional mounts for such a scope?


                    Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

Would the mounts not be similar to what was used on the later "Sharps" rifles ?
I have seen those, and they are of excellent quality, adjustable for elevation and windage.

[Shovelbuck]

There's some good photos of mounts in "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" by Ned Roberts.

[Dphariss]

Would the mounts not be similar to what was used on the later "Sharps" rifles ?
I have seen those, and they are of excellent quality, adjustable for elevation and windage.

Similar but the mounts for these were pretty fragile as well.
Also I suspect that these scoped MLs were Picket or PP Bullet rifles.
When these bullets arrived 220-440 yard and even longer range rifle matches were instituted.
Montana Vintage Arms makes target grade scopes for BPCRs.
http://www.montanavintagearms.com/mva_scope.html
But these are high quality and are used in some BPCR competition and the mounts are  too modern for a pre-civil war or even 1870s ML. They also run 950 to 1200 bucks. 
Being geared to the NRA BPCR rules they are late 19th C. the earlier mounts were found to be incapable of tolerating heavy recoil when used extensively.
If you make a set of ML type mounts they must either allow the scope to slide or the rifle must be heavy enough to dampen recoil well. Mounts simply dovetailed into the barrel with the scope clamped to the mount will pull right out.

Dan

[Hungry Horse]

 Dan;

  You are partially correct on the bullet types used in these very late muzzle loaders. The target rifles, were bullet shooters, and may have used paper patching as well. But, several double barrel sporting rifles, are in collections that show no signs of a barrel rebate that accepts the starter for the conical bullets. These guns seem to be slower twist, which make me think they were ball shooters. They were used primarily to hunt our small coastal blacktail deer.
 Unfortunately I don't have one near by to examine. I do know some of these early scope mounts relied on screw adjusters, that worked against a coil spring the had a cap over it. The scopes appear to be free floating in the mount. I just don't see how this might have worked.

                  Hungry Horse

[westbj2]

Most antique scope mounting systems use some combination of these functions.
Front Ring:  Dovetail or screw mounted to the barrel having a slip fit hole for the scope tube.  Often, the scope tube has an integral or screw secured "rail" which mates to a slot in the scope ring allowing for fore and aft movement of the tube but not rotary movement.  Some sort of spring working against the ring and a stop collar on the tube allows for recoil abatement. It is also common to see some sort of spring loaded plunger working against the tube.
Rear Ring:  Also usually dove tail or screw mounted on the barrel.  Windage and elevation adjustment screws (spring loaded plungers) are positioned at 90 (4 plungers) or 120 (3 plungers) degree spacing intervals. Maximum plunger travel is usually in the area of .150".   Some originals are works of art and others are much simpler.
Jim Westberg

[westbj2]

"But, several double barrel sporting rifles, are in collections that show no signs of a barrel rebate that accepts the starter for the conical bullets. These guns seem to be slower twist, which make me think they were ball shooters."

I once owned a beautiful and near mint .40 cal. double rifle by Wm. Billinghurst which alone would fit the description you note above.  However, in its case was an original bullet starter in the shape of a figure 8 which slid over the muzzle and stopped against the front sight.  The starter interior was smooth and had a light taper to near groove diameter.  The bullet mold produced a 300 gr grease grooved bullet.
I only shot the gun about a half dozen times and later in a weak moment sold it.  UGGGGH!!!
Jim Westberg

[Kermit]

Montana Vintage Arms makes GREAT mounts in the Malcolm style. Not cheap, but none better. None. And if you want a great scope, they've got 'em.

http://www.montanavintagearms.com/mva_malcolm.html

I trust you have or have access to The American Percussion Schuetzen Rifle by Hamilton & Rowe. There's a whole section on California rifles. Incredible photography, if a little short on technical information.

[Hungry Horse]

 Thanks guys. You all called it correctly, when you mentioned the Malcom scope mounts probably being too  expensive. I will endeavor to find some of the books mentioned, and try to build some mounts.

                    Hungry Horse

[blaksmth]

Hungry Horse,

 You might check out Art Leatherwood,s   web site there were some mounts of the Malcomb style I believe , there was another site I ran across but I had a brain @$#% and lost it.

[Hungry Horse]

 Thanks so much guys, for all your suggestions. After visiting the web-sites of the businesses you suggested, I found none of these mounts remotely resemble the mounts on the original Slotterbeck rifles I've examined. It seems, as usual, old Charlie set his own course in the area of scope mounts, just like he did in his gun building. The scope mounts he used, didn't use the spring tension full floating system seen on early cartridge rifles, and target guns of the early twentieth century. His mounts utilized a thumb wheel elevator on a shaft anchored in the tang of the gun, and a cross screw activated windage adjustment on the front mount. I fear I am doomed to make my own mounts on this one. I found a nice set of 3/4" steel rings on an old air gun scope, somebody gave me years ago, after their kid broke it. Those rings, along with an extra tang I bought for the rifle, so I had one to experiment with, will be my starting point. Wish me luck.

                          Hungry Horse 

[Bob Roller]

Hungry Horse,
I have a 1/4x80 tap and die if you need to use them.VERY fine adjustment for
elevation.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

Bob;

  That might be just what the doctor ordered. I'm not at that point yet, but when I get there, I'll get in touch. thanks.

                   Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

Bob;

  That might be just what the doctor ordered. I'm not at that point yet, but when I get there, I'll get in touch. thanks.

                   Hungry Horse

MSC has a wide variety of specialty taps and dies some are very fine thread indeed. Some are LH if needed.
So I also have a 1/4 -80 set I used to make a lollipop tang sight for a rifle I built. On long barrels this gives really fine adjustments.
I made a thin cramp nut attached to the bottom of the tang with a loose fitting screw that allows the nut to move slightly. The other screw is adjustable for tension from the top and when snugged locks the staff in place.

Dan