Stain procedure?

[Angus]

What has been the experience for y'all in using 2 stains? Do you throw on the aqua fortis first then the other stain of choice or vice versa?
Now by stain of choice, I am referring to stains that give a honey, red or brown color between the stripes.

[rich pierce]

Some use aquafortis only, some color with aquafortis and then tone it with other colors and some just use stains.  When using stains often the more subtle color goes on first and all over, then darker/richer colors are layered on top.  I have not heard of using water or spirit-based stains then aquafortis.

[E.vonAschwege]

I've used Aquafortis with LMF stains before - I've got a few different batches of aquafortis that vary in strength and therefore darkness.  The Aquafortis colors the grain better and gives better depth than the LMF in my opinion, but I don't mind tweaking once in a while with LMF to point the color one way or another.  I too have not heard of staining first with a pigment, then using aquafortis. 

Mike Brooks had an excellent bit about building and staining on his site a while ago that showed a bright yellow dye, then a brown, then a red to finish it off - the color was outstanding! 

-Eric

[Jerry V Lape]

I have used Aquafortis and followed it with multiple LMF and Homer Dangler stain colors until I got what I wanted.  When applying one alcohol based stain over another you seem to remove a goodly amount of the previous stains so the process is pretty forgiving in my experience.  None of the alcohol based stains remove the work done by the Aquafortis.  Haven't experimented with the bright orange stain yet but I have some here to do that shortly. 

[Frenchy]

OK. I give up. What is an LMF stain?

[duca]

OK. I give up. What is an LMF stain?

here ya go- http://www.store.laurelmountainforge.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=73&products_id=209

[Meteorman]

As others have said, do the AF first.
Results from AF are variable and pretty much permanent, I want to see what I have from that first - it may be fine as is.
If something more is desired, I've then been adding dilute overwashes of various colored Fiebings dyes and TransTint colors to get what i want.
/mike

[Dphariss]

People that use mulitple stains insist on a certain color. Like painting a house. I take what Ferric Nitrate gives me. Does it always give the "perfect" color? No. But its not labor intensive, its color fast and its correct for most longrifles.

Dan

[Hungry Horse]

 I think you will find that on hard curly maple, the only stains that show little or no wear, or loss of color, over time are aquafortis, and chromium trioxide. Anything else is basically a tint at best, and a color wash at worst, both susceptible to wear, and sun fading. With the earlier mentioned chemical treatments, over the past forty years, I have had great success, and dismal failures. These methods are sensitive to differences in wood, length of time between application, and heat flashing, as well as length of time heat is applied, and the heat source used. Neutralization is another whole topic in itself. I am very excited about the use of vinegar in place of nitric acid in the making of chemical stains. And, though my batch that I stirred up the day I read about the method in this forum, hasn't been tested yet, I have great hope for its success.
 I think many of the beautiful long rifles we see with such depth, and color intensity, are the product of layered colors, developed by the use of acid stains as a base, followed with tinted shellacs, or varnishes, layered on top, to produce the color, and depth. JMO.

                     Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

 I think many of the beautiful long rifles we see with such depth, and color intensity, are the product of layered colors, developed by the use of acid stains as a base, followed with tinted shellacs, or varnishes, layered on top, to produce the color, and depth. JMO.

                     Hungry Horse

Or the species, where the tree was grown and how the plank was cut from the log. All will effect the way the stock looks and its color.
Varnishes with too much tint will obscure rather than enhance if care is not used. Thick built up finishes will not "fix" a poor piece of wood and if the wrong finish is used, like plastic, it will actually make the stock look worse than it should .
A finish made mostly of natural drying oils, Linseed or Tung IN the wood with a very thin shiny top coat will give the best grain definition.
But this is not going to work well unless the surface is properly prepared before staining. If the surface is rough the grain will likely be obscured by tool marks. While a coat of varnish may smooth the tool marks  the stock will not achieve it potential. Tool marks disrupt the light reflected from the stock.

Dan

[smart dog]

Hi Angus,
In the past, I've used dilute nitric acid (not aqua fortis, no dissolved iron in the acid) first. When dry, heated the wood to blanch the acid resulting in a strong orangy pink color.  Neutralized the acid with water and baking soda and then added other brown-colored stains or water-based dyes (like LMF stains or aniline dyes) on top.  I never liked aqua fortis alone because my results were always a monotone of brown or reddish brown without much color depth or diversity.  Simple brown from aqua fortis likely is the most historically correct but I don't care for it.

dave   

[Dphariss]

Hi Angus,
In the past, I've used dilute nitric acid (not aqua fortis, no dissolved iron in the acid) first. When dry, heated the wood to blanch the acid resulting in a strong orangy pink color.  Neutralized the acid with water and baking soda and then added other brown-colored stains or water-based dyes (like LMF stains or aniline dyes) on top.  I never liked aqua fortis alone because my results were always a monotone of brown or reddish brown without much color depth or diversity.  Simple brown from aqua fortis likely is the most historically correct but I don't care for it.

dave   

If you get simple brown with AF I would wonder if you were using AF stain that was adulterated with hydrochloric.  This WILL give brown or tends to get browner with time. Store bought "AF" is generally adulterated or was a few years ago.
I have never got simple brown with AF that I made in shop.
AF will give pinky orange on some stocks but this changes when the stock has finish applied to it.
Aniline (synthetic) dyes date to the 1850s but are not color stable if exposed to sunlight.
Dan

[smylee grouch]

How is Potasium Permanginate(sp) as a stain by itself or with AF?

[rich pierce]

Potassium permanganate is not as color fast as aquafortis.  It is an oxidizer I guess but not in the same class as acids.  It reddens or "purples" up an aquafortis stained stock.  A little too purple for me, see D and F below, but could work for certain guns.  It will wear off more easily than AQF, qhich may be used to advantage (aging).

Here is a piece of curly hard maple stained various ways with aquafortis plus and minus KMnO4 (potassium permanganate).  I will try to remember the combos.



Key (if I recall correctly)
A= unstained
B= weak AQF once blushed and neutralized.  It's the current color of the Marshall rifle.
C= strong batch of AQF x2 blushed and neutralized.
D= Strong batch of AQF x2 blushed and neutralized with a concentrated KMnO4 wash
E= Weak AQF x2 blushed and neutralized.  Perfect for me and I wish I could get that color every time.  
F= Weak AQF x2 blushed and neutralized followed by a concentrated AQF wash.

[Dennis Glazener]

C= strong batch of AQF x2 blushed and neutralized.
D= Strong batch of AQF x2 blushed and neutralized with a concentrated KMnO4 wash

Rich,
Forgive my ignorance but what is "KMnO4"? I am interested in trying it since I am about ready to stain a hard sugar maple stock that the customer wants a "Dark as you can get it" stain. I was thinking of strong AQF and if not dark enough adding a asphalt or chewing tobacco stain. Formula D looks promising.
****************
Duh! Just looked it up and I see its Potassium permanganate but where can I buy it?

Dennis

[rich pierce]

KMnO4 is potassium permanganate.  I was playing chemistry professor today.  
It's sold by the big bag in feed stores and hardware stores that have water softener stuff.

[Dennis Glazener]

Thanks I would like to try some, will have to check the local hardware stores. Also saw in one of my Google searches that KOI pond supply may carry it.
Dennis

[kutter]

 I bought the last small container of Potassium Permanganate I now have at a Sears store.
As Rich says,,it's used in water softeners.
Comes in a plastic screw cap jar. Very heavy weight purple crystals for the size of the container.
Just mix with water,, a little or a lot,,depends on how deep the brown you want.
I use it to stain Walnut,,mostly touching up lighter colored streaks in otherwise darker wood.
Sometimes the whole piece.
Never used it on maple, maybe I'll give it a go.

I've been told by some that wood stained w/it will cause rust to any metal in contact with it (like inletted gun parts.
I haven't seen any of that and I've used it for many years.

Wood is wood,,if you let it get damp and stay that way,,it'll for sure rust the metal in contact with it.

[bluenoser]

My experience with potassium permanganate has not been a positive one.  I applied it over AF on the longrifle I built in about 1988 - and still carry.  I initially found it good for shading, but it wore off in short order.  I dare say not a trace of it remained as soon as two years later.  This particular rifle has an oil finish.  If I top-coated with a varnish, the potassium permanganate may have stayed put.

If you are shooting for a finish as in "D", give asphalt dissolved in pure turpentine a try.  In my experience, it produces about the same color with better curl definition and is very durable.  Today, it is my go-to stain if I want a dark finish.

Laurie

[Pete G.]

I have tried the commercially produced AF twice. Both times if was a little light to begin with, but as it aged it darkened considerably in about a year or so. May have been reacting with the linseed oil.

[Angus]

Much appreciated input and all interesting discussions.
Everyone has their opinion to a proper color or tone and beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. For myself, I prefer to be the beholder with the rifle in my hands.
I value the experience and knowledge that is expressed here and have taken note for application to future projects.

[bob hertrich]

I am trying to recreate Dickerts RCA 48. There is great pictures of that rifle in Men at Arms-The Gun Collector for last June. It shows that rifle as being very light golden toned color. I used my Wahkon Bay AF on a test piece. It came out very dark. How can I diluted the AF to achieve a lighter color.

[Dale Campbell]

I am trying to recreate Dickerts RCA 48. There is great pictures of that rifle in Men at Arms-The Gun Collector for last June. It shows that rifle as being very light golden toned color. I used my Wahkon Bay AF on a test piece. It came out very dark. How can I diluted the AF to achieve a lighter color.

Pour your acid into water to dilute. Never dilute by pouring water into acid. You could start by diluting by half and by a third and testing side by side. Decide from there if you need more dilution. Or less.

[gunmaker]

Dark as you can get it ?  Feibling's leather dye: cordovan brn. will really turn a maple chunk DARK & not raise grain either.  Been using it for quite a while now.  The dk. brn. gives a nice reddish cast to maple----usually, & simple to put on. Me being very simple, wife says.   ....Tom

[bob hertrich]

Rich, How weak was the AF used in your example B and what does once blushed mean. I am trying to get a color like that for my rifle.