Cleaning in the heyday

[Elmo]

What cleaning procedure did they use in the days of old when they were in the field for months at a time? By this I mean in the late 1700's and early 1800's.

[James Wilson Everett]

Elmo,

Great question - no, I don't know the answer, but I sure would like to find any documentation on this.  I hope that someone out there has come across some reference or documentation to give an answer.

Jim

[pathfinder]

I recall "somewhere" that tow and warm water was common for cleaning and ones"own water"could also be used,in a pinch! Some kind of tallow for storage.

[Dphariss]

What cleaning procedure did they use in the days of old when they were in the field for months at a time? By this I mean in the late 1700's and early 1800's.

Depends.
Are you are in a potentially hostile environment?  In the Kentucky/Ohio/WV frontier area this meant well into the 19th c.
Are you alone?
Are you in camp/cabin or out in the woods?

If you may have to repel boarders then a quick wipe with some tallow and tow and maybe then a dry tow wad. Clear the vent and load.
If you are in some enclosure  or have a number of others around whose guns are not disabled? If doing a detail cleaning, use some water. Hooked breeches were obviously intended for this.

Get you gun well wetted by yourself and the Shawnee show up with blood in their eyes....


Dan

[Slow2Load]

Maybe not in the 1700s, but according to Ned Roberts, you used HOT water to wash down the bore and swab dry. Apparently the heat helped evaporate any moisture left.

[Old Bob]

What cleaning procedure did they use in the days of old when they were in the field for months at a time? By this I mean in the late 1700's and early 1800's.

While this procedure was mid 19th Cen. and military, I'm sure it is not much different than that of the 18th, other than being on a percussion musket:

1st. "Stop the hole in the cone (substitute touchhole) with a peg of soft wood; pour a gill of water (warm if it can be had) into the muzzle; let it stand a short time, to soften the deposit of the powder; put a plug of soft wood into the muzzle, and shake the water up and down the barrel well; pour this out and repeat the washing until the water comes out clear; take out the peg from the cone, and stand the barrel, muzzle downwards, to drain, for a few moments."

2nd. "Screw the wiper on to the end of the ramrod and put a piece of dry cloth or tow round it, sufficient to prevent it from chafing the grooves of the barrel; wipe the barrel quite dry, changing or drying the clothe two or three times."

3rd. "Put no oil in the vent, as it will clog the passage and cause the first primer to misfire ( In a flintlock oil will build up in a TH, especially a coned one when the piece is left standing breech down); but with a slightly oiled rag on the wiper, rub the bore of the barrel and face of the breech-screw and immediately insert the tompion in the muzzle." (This last step is obviously meant to be used in a secure camp or garrison).

(Rules for the Management and Cleaning of the Rifle Musket Model 1855 E.S. Allin, Master Armorer)

Water is still the best solvent for real BP residue. Some argue that hot water causes "flash rusting", but it doesn't. It will however, break up fouling faster than cold water, just like it does food remnants on a plate or pan when you pre-rinse them. A little dash of Dawn dish detergent enhances the experience.

BTW, as far as flash rusting goes, I saw a lot of it when reenacting. But it was on the outside. My Richmond RM of course was National Armory Bright and when it was new, a light rain would turn it orange in minutes. But that was cold water. After many years of use and handling I allowed a patina to build and flash rusting is a thing of the past.

[Dphariss]

Maybe not in the 1700s, but according to Ned Roberts, you used HOT water to wash down the bore and swab dry. Apparently the heat helped evaporate any moisture left.

This is sorta apples and oranges if we are comparing 18th c FL to late 19th c percussion.
Ned Roberts lived in an EXTREMELY civilized and safe place. HOT water works but it promotes flash rusting, I quit using it because of this. Soapy hot water is even worse. HOWEVER, remember that the caps Roberts used were very CORROSIVE. Much like modern  substitute powders with Potassium Perchlorate in them. This fouling needs hot water and lots of it. BP used in FLs is more benign.
But BP is not so aggressive  and cool or tepid water is just as good. If soap is added it has to be rinsed with clear water since soup is also corrosive. The Chlorate (Caps) /Perchlorate (some modern powders) fouling will attack iron/steel even under and oil film.
If using the breech in the bucket technique then the dirty water cannot be used as a final rinse. Use clear.
Now if I were on the plains or in the Mountains with a "Brigade" in 1830 I could pour hot water down the barrel to wash out the passages etc and dry fast. But if I am out alone? This has to be done more carefully.
Also note than PERCUSSION guns are more difficult to clean than a FL is. More  places to get plugged with fouling or tallow and fouling if this is used.
A plain breech flint gun can be wiped with tallow, the pan and frizzen wiped the the vent "feathered" to clear it then reloaded. A percussion gun may need a water flush to remove the fouling in the powder channels in the breech or the drum. Many old drums had no clean out screw and once plugged the channels are plugged. So by Roberts time the cleaning methods may well have changed simply due to the differences in how the percussion guns were made and the aggressive fouling produced by the caps.
I much prefer the breech in the bucket method or Track of The Wolf's FL cleaner than clamps over the vent with a tube to the bucket, if it can be made to work. But its not practical for the typical long rifle.
Chapman in "The Improved American Rifle" cleaned with Sperm Whale oil IIRC and then when he was ready to shoot again pulled the nipple, put some powder in the chamber under it, replaced the nipple and fired to blow the channel clear of oiled fouling which wiping with an oily rag would not touch and may have even packed with fouling. This from the 1850s. HOWEVER, he was an eastern TARGET shooter.
By the time Ned was using a rifle breechloaders were the standard and MLs were fading from use he was born in 1866 after all. While this makes him a wonderful source for the late percussion era, its not necessarily correct for the FL era 60-100 years before his birth.
Dan

[Dphariss]

(Rules for the Management and Cleaning of the Rifle Musket Model 1855 E.S. Allin, Master Armorer)

Water is still the best solvent for real BP residue. Some argue that hot water causes "flash rusting", but it doesn't. It will however, break up fouling faster than cold water, just like it does food remnants on a plate or pan when you pre-rinse them. A little dash of Dawn dish detergent enhances the experience.

BTW, as far as flash rusting goes, I saw a lot of it when reenacting. But it was on the outside. My Richmond RM of course was National Armory Bright and when it was new, a light rain would turn it orange in minutes. But that was cold water. After many years of use and handling I allowed a patina to build and flash rusting is a thing of the past.

But I don't want "patina" in the bore and this is what occurs with hot water, it effectively browns the inside of the bore. BTDT. Cooler water does not.
The process the Army recommended is much as I use to clean a fixed breech rifle. But again the Army is not the 1-3 hunters alone. Nor is the percussion gun a FL for cleaning purposes. Was tallow perfect? No. But the rifle could always be freshed.  It was hard to recover from having ones head split with a tomahawk or war club. Its ALL related to place, time, situation. Boone or Kenton (for example) hunting alone in Kentucky in 1780 could shoot one shot, kill a deer, do a quick wipe, reload, get the deer ready and high tail it. Shoot twice? One shot tells everyone in hearing you are out there. More than one is a locator... So they were careful and did not leave their rifle unloaded while "outside the wire" (a little lingo from my youth) because it might be fatal.
In the Army, in a bivouac there as PICKETS and loaded guns in camp were not a good idea. So putting the gun out of service for 10 minutes or more was not as worrisome. Besides what you WANTED was irrelevant in this situation. Your officer and sgt would make sure you did it the way THEY wanted it done.
Dan

[Old Bob]

I don't want a patina in the bore either and I don't have any. Left wet and exposed to air, you're going to get rust whether the water was hot or cold. Rain water is not hot and that was when I saw rapid rusting. I don't like to use the term flash rust actually. That describes a process that doesn't exist, at least not in a normal environment. I've seen rust begin in minutes in certain weather conditions and in the presence of powder fouling and salt, but not in a flash.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If you use really hot water, and especially with soap, your bore will dry before you can get a dry patch down it to soak up the water.  This drying will certainly oxidize the bore.  That's what I refer to as 'flash rusting'.  It can be avoided by using only room temp water, and having flushed the bore, and standing the barrel muzzle down while you dry the rod and get a dry patch on the jag, you dry the bore with a series of patches.  There is no chance for the bore to oxidize, and hence, no 'flash rust'.  With the hot water system, no matter how quickly you move, by the time you get a dry patch in there, you come out with a patch that has a tint of red/brown on it - and that is your bore flash rusting.  Soap makes it worse. 

[Old Bob]

That's never happened to me. I don't know how hot is too hot to you, but I'm talking hot tap water from my kitchen sink. This cools down pretty fast after going into a barrel since the barrel acts as a heat sink. But it stays hot long enough to penetrate the gunk. When I shove a patch home to the breech, enough water is still in there to shoot out of the touchhole (or drum/bolster if percussion). Nope, no rust.

[PPatch]

Maybe not in the 1700s, but according to Ned Roberts, you used HOT water to wash down the bore and swab dry. Apparently the heat helped evaporate any moisture left.

Yes, in Ned Roberts The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle basically says that when he was a boy he was taught by his uncle Alvaro (a member of Berdsn’s Sharpshooter in the Civil War) that there was only ONE WAY to clean a rifle…

Heat a basin of water very hot, twist a towel around the muzzle so as to use as a heat shield and handle, using a funnel pour the water down the bore and let it run out of the nipple (or touchhole). Then stand the rifle in the corner muzzle down for about ten minutes but NOT until it is cold. Run sperm oil patches in the bore three times then run a dry patch to see if any powder residue remains. If not oil the bore with sperm oil until next use.

He also says: “Even when hunting in the wilderness one can get hot water and clean and oil it as described. Uncle Alvaro told him “On arriving at camp, no matter what time of day or night, whether you are wet or dry, warm or cold, the FIRST THING TO BE DONE is to feed and care for your horse, next, clean and oil, and if necessary, load your rifle.” He further states “If you absolutely must neglect any of these things go without your victuals, but care for your horse and rifle first, else you may not need any more victuals.”

dave

[Dphariss]

Maybe not in the 1700s, but according to Ned Roberts, you used HOT water to wash down the bore and swab dry. Apparently the heat helped evaporate any moisture left.

Yes, in Ned Roberts The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle basically says that when he was a boy he was taught by his uncle Alvaro (a member of Berdsn’s Sharpshooter in the Civil War) that there was only ONE WAY to clean a rifle…

Heat a basin of water very hot, twist a towel around the muzzle so as to use as a heat shield and handle, using a funnel pour the water down the bore and let it run out of the nipple (or touchhole). Then stand the rifle in the corner muzzle down for about ten minutes but NOT until it is cold. Run sperm oil patches in the bore three times then run a dry patch to see if any powder residue remains. If not oil the bore with sperm oil until next use.

He also says: “Even when hunting in the wilderness one can get hot water and clean and oil it as described. Uncle Alvaro told him “On arriving at camp, no matter what time of day or night, whether you are wet or dry, warm or cold, the FIRST THING TO BE DONE is to feed and care for your horse, next, clean and oil, and if necessary, load your rifle.” He further states “If you absolutely must neglect any of these things go without your victuals, but care for your horse and rifle first, else you may not need any more victuals.”

dave

Remember they were using CORROSIVE CAPS. These Potassium Chlorate caps produce VERY aggressive fouling as evidenced by the sometimes severe erosion at the breech of many percussion guns, especially those using a drum and nipple. One way to tell if a flint rifle has been converted or reconverted to flint is by looking at the erosion at the breech.
Chlorate fouling is best cleaned with hot or at least warm water.  Blackpowder fouling does not require hot water. It sucks up cool water just fine and can then be wiped and washed away.
I have never used hot water on barrel that did not rust to some extent once the barrel is hot the water will flash off and brown the barrel before it can be wiped away. Soap is also somewhat corrosive and needs to be rinsed away if used with clean water. So if the bore is soapy it needs to be flushed with clean water.
If the barrel looks brown, especially in the grooves the water is too hot.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Another thing. When drying the bore patches will come out with black on them sometimes as the bore is nearly dry.
This is more often than not black iron oxide. If these patches are set aside to dry overnight the black will turn to red iron oxide. If the black turns grey its powder fouling.

Dan

[Nate McKenzie]

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24312.0

[Daryl]

I'm with Dan and Taylor on this. I cleaned my first rifle with hot water and soap - not tap water, HOT water as described in Ned's (to me) bible in those days.

Every time I cleaned the bore of that rifle, just as Taylor and Dan said - instant rust as the bore instantly dried & oxidized.  There would be a small  amount of water squirt out the nipple's hole, but that was it. The first patch came out of the dry bore, red with rust- every time. As out late friend Peter N. discovered, the effect is accumulative.

That was HOT water, perhaps the tap or hose does not produce HOT water as described in Ned's book. He didn't say warm water, he said HOT water.

A VERY close friend of mine a Double Rifle and Shotgun collector, showed me a letter from Holland and Holland - ENGLAND - ie: maker of FINE side by side rifles and shotguns. That letter said to use cold tap water to clean black powder fouling as it would not FLASH RUST the bore as HOT water did. It is interesting that Dan, Taylor and I, all with BP experience since, well, for me the early 70's, Taylor & Dan more, I guess & that GREAT rifle and shotgun maker H&H (not the American BP rifle company who uses that famous name) all got flash rusting if cleaning with HOT water.
H&H also says cold water dissolves BP fouling faster than hot & that hot water actually glazes the surface of the fouling built up in the breech, slowing it's degradation.  Perhaps THIS is why BREECH scrapers were invented, for people who use HOT water for cleaning?
I've been using nothing but cold water for cleaning my rifles since about 1977, have pulled the breeches many times and there is NEVER any fouling on the breech plug, nor any roughness nor pits in my bores.
All I can add to this discussion, is cold water is safe,and works for Taylor and Dan & me.

[Bill Weedman]

Would the difference in barrel metal stop some of the rusting. Wrought iron does not rust or corrode like modern steel which would make the use of hot water viable. We have to look at all the material differences between what we have today and what was used at the time.

Bill

[Daryl]

That's entirely possible, Bill.  H&H were concerned that my friend was using boiling hot water as was recommended, in the damascus barrels of fine Double Guns worth in the 10's of thousands of $$ in his collection.

The barrel I had flash rust so badly, was a TC barrel of 1970 vintage- whatever they were made of- don't know. I do know that Pete's barrel was a 12L14 barrel.

I know that a 12L14 barrel in .45 calibre I had once, made by Les B. badly corroded around the nipple seat from cap-flash- at that time, I was cleaning with cold water, but using my own home made caps made with Potassium Chlorate, Charcoal and Sulfur.  The cholorates were VERY aggressive.  The bore was OK as it was always well flushed, but the outside of the barrel's breech suffered - guess I didn't scrub it enough.  using hot water on such a barrel, one would have to decide if the flash rusting was worse than the corrosive action of the fouling if not cleaned well enough.

[Elmo]

Thanks for the replies. I am on the cool water side myself. I started with an inline H&R back about 1973 and the next year built a TC hawken 50 percussion. I do not recall where I got the cleaning advice that I should use boiling water but it did just as you said. The barrel would dry instantly and a clean patch would come out with rust on it. I switched to tap water and no more rust. I still have the rifle and recently pulled the breech plug and it looks great inside. I have shot about 25 or more pounds of powder through it and it still shoots as good as I can.
   Elmo