Tying accoutrements to the pouch strap

[T.C.Albert]

Some mountain man era pouches seem to have accoutrements tied to the strap...

the Marino Modena pouch is one example...Tom Tobin's another...and some mention of the practice is made in writings from the time as well...

Was this really a common thing to do? If so why?

tc

[Chris Treichel]

I don't have any proof for it back in the day.

When I was in the Marines we called them dummy cords... so you don't look stupid when the item is lost and your standing in front of your sergeant trying to explain where that set of night vision binoculars went and why your whole platoon is standing online in the woods looking for them. 

Anything important and loosable like a compass gets tied to something you can't loose like your 782 gear (ammo pouch harness thing).

[T.C.Albert]

Well, there is that...but keeping stuff in the bag actually seems safer to me...

I just don't recall ever seeing where tying stuff to the strap was an eastern long hunter thing.

Modena, Tobin, and I would suppose Carson too, were all in the south west, making me wonder if that's where the influence came from?

Anyway, just wondering if a proper contemporary western pouch should have all the doo-dads hanging on it too...or if it was a limited practice?
tc

[pathfinder]

From what I've been able gather from all the reading and practical experience,stuff on the strap is convenient,IF your in open country. Where I live in Michigan,It get's kinda thick and stuff on the strap get's hung up on EVERYTHING!

The limited number of originals I've seen,most without the strap by the way,didn't have evidence of thing's hanging from them,ie;holes or thong's.

And what's left in the bag's is also not a good indicator of what they carried. In my own home,the bag has been"raided" for a screw driver and such. Sometimes they make it back,others,not so much.

[T.C.Albert]

great point about underbrush...

I was of the mind that the Modena bag was an anomaly...
until recently when I blew up an image of Tom Tobin to
study his pouch, and notcied there on the back pouch strap was hanging
a bullet mold...I think theres other stuff too but cant see it clearly enough to
tell just what...

Am I wrong, or were Tobin, Modena, and Carson all buds? So I wonder if there's
a Carson bag somewhere with stuff attached to it ...I think Ruxton mentioned the practice too...makes me wonder if I could/should do the same with my own western pouches?

Was a time recently when hanging everything off the pouch was considered  a new-bee...kind of a 70s buckskinner fad...now Im not so sure?
thing to do...but maybe
tc


 

[beaudro]

I don't post much, but here's a few quotes ..
   Rufus Sage: His waist is encircled with a belt of leather, holding encased his butcher-knife and pistols—while from his neck is suspended a bullet-pouch securely fastened to the belt in front, and beneath the right arm hangs a powder-horn transversely from his shoulder, behind which, upon the strap attached to it, are affixed his bullet-mould, ball-screw, wiper, awl, &c. With a gun-stick made of some hard wood, and a good rifle placed in his hands, carrying from thirty to thirty-five balls to the pound, the reader will have before him a correct likeness of a genuine mountaineer, when fully equipped.

Here's is the Ruxton quote: . Over his left shoulder and under his right arm hang his powder-horn and bullet-pouch, in which he carries his balls, flint and steel, and odds and ends of all kinds. Round the waist is a belt, in which is stuck a large butcher-knife in a sheath of buffalo-hide, made fast to the belt by a chain or guard of steel; which also supports a little buckskin case containing a whetstone.

[pathfinder]

Was a time recently when hanging everything off the pouch was considered  a new-bee...kind of a 70s buckskinner fad...now Im not so sure?
thing to do...but maybe
tc

We had to learn it from somewhere! I've had conversation's with 30-35year bud's and we all feel the same,We miss those colorful Buckskinning day's! Now  everything is brown and biege.

With Tobin as an example,and the other sources quoted,if I were Western again,as long as I'm not hittin' my beloved Cottonwood Swamp's,Id have no problem hanging stuff from the strap.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The strap of my pouches is a field for accoutrements.  I'm a practical guy.  And I use my rifles to hunt big game.  All of the major 'tools' - bullet board, short starter, and powder measure have a thong that secures them to the strap.  These accoutrements remain inside the bag, but are easily accessible when they are needed.  When you use your pouch with this set up, for ordinary trail shooting, you become intimate with your set up, so there is no confusion when the time comes for a fast reload.  And without those attaching thongs, sure as heck, you will lose a critical tool in the thick stuff.  It is no surprise to me that plainsmen and mountaineers used this system.

[axelp]

As long as I can tuck it in the bag, I do like to secure some items so I dont lose them.

But there is nothing so anti-woods than a bag with all sorts of too-dads hanging off of it. I prefer to not have a bunch of stuff on my bag or horn that can catch on brush and make noise... I make enough noise without that kind of help.

[Luke MacGillie]

Yall are slipping when I have to post Dodderidge for ya

“ Moccasons in ordinary use cost but a few hours to make them. This was done by an instrument denominated a moccasin awl, which was made of the backspring of an old clasp knife. This awl with it’s buckhorn handle was the appendage of every shot pouch strap, Together with a roll of buckskin for mending the moccasins."

[pathfinder]

Before it wanders too far,what T.C. is speaking of is stuff ALL over the strap.Bullet mould and fire striker hung from a thong on the back of the strap type thing's.

Measure,pick,patch knife and such is VERY conveniant. I have a small "pouch" that hold's the measure on the strap.I stitch another row @3/16 from the pouch edge to stick the vent pick in.

[Pete G.]

I was at a re-enactment last week end and a longhunter came ambling by with all kinds of stuff clinking and clanking as he walked. Sort of reminded me of the cow bell so the animal could always be located. Could not help but wonder just how long the long hunter could hunt without becoming the hunted. It doesn't seem too practical for someone who actually uses their outfit the way it was intended.

[pathfinder]

Agreed! I have thing's on my strap,but they tuck into the bag,for that reason AND so they dont get hung up and lost.

I kinda like seeing those guy's,remind's me of my Buckskinnin' day's of years long past! Man were we COOL!!

[Habu]

The practice of hanging "stuff" off the strap seems to surface in early photos (Tobin, Medina, etc), but as TC has pointed out, those guys were all from the southwest. 

The earliest mention I've found of this practice is in Sage: Scenes in the Rocky Mountains was published in 1846 and discusses his observations from around 1840-1844.  Ruxton mentions it a few years later.  Both men spent time in the southwest, and I can't help but wonder if these descriptions didn't influence, more than describe, practices there.  It really looks to me like it was a fad--an expectation that "this" was how a southwest mountaineer would carry his gear--and that it may have been started (or at least popularized) by Sage. 

(In a similar manner, the mention of "Green River knives" in Ruxton seems to have lead to an expectation on the part of readers that "mountaineers carried Green River knives."  Ruxton mentioned them first, then everyone tagged on when his newspaper series became popular.  There have been more than a few people over the years who've suggested that Ruxton was trying to out-tall-tale the other writers of his day.) 

And keep in mind that those bags are shown in photos.  They are late bags, quite possibly the last bags these guys had.  Absent other evidence, they shouldn't be taken as representative of earlier bags, or of bags used in other areas of the trans-Missouri west.

Some examples from other times/areas:

In Edward Warren, in what is considered by many to be a description of his own outfit of 1833, Stewart wrote, ". . . a butcher knife was in my belt, and an awl was attached to my pouch, which, with a large transparent horn of powder, and a wooden measure hanging to it, completed my outfit."  An awl, a powder horn, a measure, and that was it for strap-hangers. 

If you look at the few early illustrations, Miller and Bodmer don't seem to show a bunch of "stuff" hanging off the bag.   In 1851-52, Kurz drew what is one of the earliest and best illustrations we have of a pouch used on the upper Missouri.  Aside from a horn, and what appears to be a powder measure, there's no "stuff" hanging off the strap.   (In the late '80s, I was told that Denig's pouch was still extant; has it ever surfaced in a museum or auction?)

A bag collected in the late 1850s that is believed to have belonged to Logan Fontenelle, has nothing but straps for a horn, with no sign of anything else having ever been attached to the strap.

A bag that can be dated to at least 1861, from Taos, has only a powder horn and a WBO striker attached to the strap.  Everything else is either in the bag, or curiously, attached to the rifle (powder measure and pick were tied to the rear of the triggerguard).

Jim

[Don Getz]

I have certain things attached to the shoulder strap, but they are all long enough to tuck them into the bag.  No one has
talked about how they attach them to the strap.   I have used fake sinew which is really strong stuff.   I like to take three
strands of the stuff and braid it, ultra strong...........Don

[skillman]

I'm kinda with Don here. I use fine artificial sinew, braided, to attach the things I use regularly in the loading process to the strap. I used to have them hooked to a button but now prefer to attach them very close to the bag attachment point on the strap. When tucked into the bag you don't really see the lanyards and they don't hang up on things. It is really annoying to be on a trail walk and realize that your measure or pick is lost somewhere back on the trail. I have had discussions about lanyards on the powder horn stopper as well. Same reasoning has me using a fine braided sinew lanyard on my horns.

Steve

[axelp]

I use three strands of heavy linen carpet thread and braid it. I either have my hangers on long enough and low enough to tuck in the pouch, or in the case of my powder measure. I made a leather pocket on the horn strap to tuck it into so it does not dangle all over. My vent pick is tied by a braid from my trigger guard. It is always with the gun. It does dangle around a bit, but its just a piece of brass wire.

K

[pathfinder]

In the book's "Tool's and Trap's of the Mountain Man",and Madison Grant's "Hunting Pouches",they show what T.C. is talking about.

It's not thing's on thong's that tuck into the bag,we all agree that it's a very safe and convinent way to have our plunder handy,but actually on the strap to stay "out there in the wind" Bullet Mould,Fire steel,Screw driver,Ladle.

I did it that way once back in the '70's,Gonna be just like Charelton Heston,by God,I ARE A MOUNTAIN MAN! But what a PITA!

Thing's clanging and banging and dangling,(makes a cool shadow with the early morning sun behind you!)has a definate "Cool" factor,but 1 minute in the wood's,your taking it off and putting all inside the bag.

In the open southwest,I dont think it would be an issue though.

[Jerry V Lape]

Your image of the southwest as open and relatively brush free is not very accurate.  Just cross one draw  filled with mesquite,  cat claw acacia and several varieties of cholla and your image will be corrected - and you might need a box of band aids if not a small transfusion.  I grew up in the wild raspberry, grapevine and crab apple thickets of Pennsylvania.  The desert of Arizona is every bit if not more entangling if you hope to get at the deer and javelina.  Just keeping your shirt in one piece and glasses and hat is hard enough without dangling cords.  You will have stretches without much above knee height brush but there is no way to avoid the brushy ravines.  If I were to carry something on a cord it might be a pair of needle nose pliers to pull the cholla spines out of my hide and my dog.  Need that item regularly.  Bat wing chaps and heavy denim jackets were not fashion statements. 

[whitebear]

I think that it was Max Vickory in an old issue of Muzzleblast that addressed doing this while squirrel hunting.  He said that he had a thin leather strap on his hunting bag with the tools needed for loading on the strap in the order that he would need them for reloading.  IIRC he had a powder measure on the bottom of the strap a loading block next a short starter next and a tiny primer on the top.  All things were drilled to slide on the strap so that when not in use they would all slide down and be tucked away in the bag out of the way.  His reasoning for this was that he could reload by feel and knowing what was next on the string while watching the squirrel in the treetops without having to take his eyes of off the game.

Of course this was before coning of muzzles was so popular.

[pathfinder]

Agreed Jerry! but I think if he spent time in that type of environment he wouldn't have the stuff outside the bag,and,I'm sure they would avoid those spots and stay high up on thier horse.

Reckless speculation on my part!

I saw some desert in Vegas and the drive between Vegas and L.A. Not 1 dead critter on the side of the road,not 1! I love my Michigan cedar swamp's!

[Don Getz]

Another thing I did with my hunting rifle.    I had a nipple pick hanging from the front of the trigger guard, about 6" of fake
sinew, never got into trouble with it and it was there when I needed it.   Also had one on my chunk gun.........Don

[Habu]

Don and Ken, I commented on the pick and measure attached to the rifle because it struck me as unusual to have them both attached in that fashion.  That rifle and bag were unusual in a lot of ways.  I've only seen a couple of originals that had a pick tied to the rifle, and never seen another measure tied to the rifle.  I've always wondered if there was a particular reason (beyond his preference) that the original owner did that. 

As for the rest of it, I'm in the process of gradually getting my notes on pouches and horns I've examined put into some coherent form.  I've focused on pouches/horns with a history of use in the trans-Missouri west, so for the most part these bags date to roughly the 1830-1880 time period.  From a quick look a the notes, it looks like the most common means of attachment to the strap (other than sewn on, as was common for horn straps) was to punch or poke holes in the strap and run a string through. 

Today, the most-common set-up seems to be to poke a hole through the strap, thread the attachment cord through the hole, and tie a knot to keep it from going back out.  The old bags I've studied have more-commonly used two holes (usually, but not always, one above the other).  The cord is threaded though one hole to the back of the strap, then through the other hole so both ends are on the same side.  The cord is then knotted together, and the free end of the cord is attached to whatever is going to be carried on it.

This results in a more-durable attachment to the strap, but it also provides a way to control the amount of "flop" those straphangers will have.  The strikers I've seen attached to old bags (almost always the WBO-pattern) have been attached with the two-hole method, contained within the knot.  This holds the striker flat against the strap.  Typically, they were also attached to the back strap.  Done in this manner, there is a greatly-reduced risk that it will get torn away if/when it gets caught in brush. 

The only real problem with using the two-hole approach today is that a cord like artificial sinew will often cut through the leather if there is sufficient movement.  But a thin cord like that can be attached by making a couple of stitches then using the free end, so it just calls for a little thought before beginning the attachment. 

The cords (or whatever you want to call them--"keepers?") seem to be an even mix of twisted or braided manufactured thread (linen, hemp, cotton, etc), and strips of leather/rawhide.  I can recall a couple of jackchains, but from what I've seen they were very unusual in the west.  There were also a couple of what seemed to be "watch chains" such as a pocketwatch might be carried on.  Of course there is no way of knowing when those various cords were used to attach stuff to the strap--they could be 20 years old or 150 years old. 

[louieparker]

Habu
I have a pouch with a knife scabbard and a stitched leather tube about three inches long attached to the strap,, In the tube is an adjustable metal powder measure, hanging from (as you said) a watch chain. I don't know how to date this outfit..Its rather late as it has the embossed hearts in the flap.. 

[sloe bear]

 Boy,am I going to open a bag of worm... this discussion about what a mountaineer would hang on his bag strap is bunk, you all know that we do what's right for us, if I need to hang a measure on my strap I do it , if I need a knife I do it and anything else I deem necessary for the hunt, I don't go around like a pot&pan salesman making all kinds of strange noise, but I do what I feel necessary. I don't go research what some other guy out of the past did,because human nature has always been the same the old timers did the very same thing that we do they hung what they needed and where it was handy for them. I'm pretty sure they did not get the lastest fashion news and follow it when the created the outfit the used. they covered their butt the best way they could using the materials that were available to them . we seem to get in this rut that everything we carry has to be an exact representation of what they carried.How many of you guys out there have lath turned jags? and many other things that are available to you today. The old timers would have been very happy to have the things available to us today, the vast amount of things that meet the requirements the best way possible,I'm not saying that we should all use plastic and the like but as to what a trapper or a long trekker carried on his bag strap or his horn strap is a lot of conjecture on everyone part. we carry what we need for the hunt were on. come on guys let me have it how many of you out there would give up some of the modern things youcarry like "tp" would you go back and recreate what they used?