Tying accoutrements to the pouch strap

[T.C.Albert]

I'm not so sure about all that sloe bear...for that region, day and age, Tobin especially seems quite trendy and fashion conscious in the images I've seen of him...far that matter Modena does too...I expect they all did copy each other to some extent when they could.
tc

[Habu]

Louie, is the tube attached at one end, or sewn along the side(s) to attach it to the strap?  I don't recall seeing a sheath for a measure that was just attached at one end, but I've seen the remnants of something that at one time was attached to the strap.  I've only seen those on later, machine-sewn bags that seemed to be a commercial product, suggesting it might (and that is a highly-qualified "might") be a later characteristic.

I've always wondered about the watch chains.  I know that in some cases, use of ML continued long past the introduction and popularization of cartridge guns, and many of the old guns were returned to use during the Great Depression and the ammo restrictions of WWII.  It seems to me (with little justification) that perhaps the use of watch chains came about after the main period of ML use, when companies like Sears Roebuck and Montgomery Wards made such commodities easily available and at an economical price.  Or maybe folks just wanted a means of attachment that wasn't as likely to break as a piece of string or leather . . . .

Sloe Bear, if I want to shoot the smallest possible groups, have the certainty of filling a tag, or be prepared to fight, I don't reach for my flintlock: modern alternatives are far more efficient and reliable.  I looking to past practices as a way of seeking understanding about the past. 

There are many accounts of people in the west avidly seeking news, and buying the latest fashions they could access; it was a time when far more emphasis was placed on dressing for one's station in life.  Accounts exist of expectations that people working at trading posts upriver or in the north would wear European-styled clothes in order to make an impression on the natives and to maintain their standing in the community, and of the same people buying leather clothes and beaded finery when going east because that was what was expected of them. 

At the time the photos were taken, Tobin was an army scout and bounty hunter.  His famous coat was given to him by the governor of Colorado in 1863 or '64, after he hunted down, killed, and beheaded a couple of murderers.  He dressed the way he was expected to look (and part of that was probably an expectation of Native influence as he was a "half-breed").  His half-brother, Charles Autobee, was also a scout--during his years as a scout he dressed in a similar manner, and later as a rancher/saloon keeper, he dressed in then-conventional clothes that fit those roles. 

Medina was a "frontiersman" who ran a ferry etc.  He dressed to meet the social expectations of how a frontiersman looked.  (He also had a bit of a reputation as a "clothes horse.")

[louieparker]

Huba
The shoulder strap is  1 7/8 inch wide . The knife sheath is strap width,hand stitched all around the edge to the strap. The tube for charger is a single piece of leather center folded and inserted between the strap and sheath,stitched full length with the sheath ...The horn strap is about 3/4 inch wide, center folded, the fold wraps around the bag strap, pushed up again the bottom of the measure tube and stitched for about 1 1/4 inch through the four plies...

[T.C.Albert]

Here's a good shot of the Modena bag...you can see many of the thongs laced onto the strap to tie stuff onto it...and the stuff that I assume was tied on...that's a lot of stuff attached to the strap!

I never see a contemporary pouch set up like that, but wonder if maybe we should?

Like I mentioned, Tobin also seems to have a similar set up on the strap of his pouch...all I wondered was if it was an actual trend or definitive style that we should copy today on late era western bags, at least maybe sometimes?

True, most pouch sets made today are for more eastern or southern type guns...but now and then I make a western set...so I wondered if maybe to do it right I should set one up similarly? Not as a copy of the Modena bag, but just to represent the era.
tc

[pathfinder]

I'd love to see Chuck Burrow's wiegh in on this one!

And Sloe Bear, I like your post! Especialy about the "rut of being exact".

Thanks T.C. for posting the picture!As we have noticed,it is worth MORE than a thousand word's!

I use a brass watch chain on the measure of a couple of my rig's. I like'em.

[skillman]

I have found fine chain to not be so strong. The artificial sinew to be much stronger.

Steve

[sloe bear]

 Thanks to all of you , i really wanted to get some conversation going, I went to the range yesterday to check the pattern out on my 2o ga Fowler that I recently purchased from Ken Moore, it shoot great , however I hand not set up my bag and horn with my "usual hang ons" I had my measure on the bench and a short starter, these are usually on leather thong hung off my horn, it works for me and has for more than 4 decades, by to days standards most of my gear could be called "antique " like me. I still love to get after small and large game with the old flintlock. it was back in 1966 at one of the first State shoots that a friend turned me onto Flintlocks and its been in my blood ever since. Going out scouting for Turkeys today, the hunt opens in a couple of weeks, I love to dress in period clothing and get out , there are some that thinks me nuts to dress and use such things , but its really is great fun.

[pathfinder]

Your among kinder spirits,at least with me. Just went out in period dress this afternoon.

[Crossed Arrows]

I've had the great opportunity to handle and examine the Mariano Modena Hawkin and stuff at two classic gunshows in Denver.

A good part of my interest is to field test the gear of my time period - 1813 - so I'm a bit early for the Mountain Man stuff but I follow parameters for use where I live in the Rockies:

1. Can I run with this stuff on without it slapping the heck out of me?
2. Can I move around and run quietly with this stuff on?
3. Can I load and shoot smoothly with this stuff on?
4. Can I walk several miles in the mountains while carrying this stuff comfortably?
5. Do I have what I need to survive several days if I twist an ankle or get stranded in bad weather?

As such, I have been brutal in cutting everything to the minimum and keeping most everything organized in my shooting bag or my possibles bag.  If it doesn't pass my simple testing, then I don't buy into most others doing it back then.

[sloe bear]

it is enjoyable to read everyone ideas, my self most of the items I tie on the bag are then inserted into a pocket also sewn on the strap, I have found that a powder measure is handiest on the horn not the bag and I also tie my short started to the horn , always handy and it doesn't rattle ,I to dang old to do much running any more so I just make my bag and horn handy for me. I really don't care if some one in the past did it my way or if I do it their way.I have a bag my Great granfather used in the 1870's and I copied it for my flint bag but altered items to "again" suit me and the way I hunt. by the way the rock chucks are running about ,there's sport for ya hunt them with yer flinter. it's great. I guess I'm like the old frank Sinatra song I Did It My Way.

[Duane Harshaw]

how would a powder measure,be attached to a rile.

[Crossed Arrows]

rusty - One of the only things dangling from my stuff is a powder  measure hanging from the tip end of my powder horn, but you can just as easily hang it from the strap of your shooting bag.  My powder measure is carved from the tip of an antler and the volume of the measure is adjusted by a  bit of melted wax in the bottom.  The measure is attached to the woven strap of the powder horn with a bit of soft leather lace where it attaches to the tip end and is a proper length so that it's just long enough to fill from the horn, replace the plug and pour the powder into the muzzle.  This is the most time-efficient method that I have found.

Although I have a beautiful wooden shooting box at home with more stuff than I will ever use, almost all of my shooting is done in the field, from my bag and horn.  I'm always thinking about going on campaign with Daniel Morgan or some of the other great heroes of our Revolution and how minimal could I  keep my gear.

[Crossed Arrows]

I should mention that if my interest was in the furtrapper or mountain man lifestyle, my criteria for field testing would be the same as what I listed above.  Basically: does it work in the field for extended service?

[Duane Harshaw]

Thank you very much..

[Crossed Arrows]

rusty51 - You are very welcome.

I should also mention that the powder measure is slipped behind my woven sash to keep it from swinging around while walking or running (not that I do much running these days.)

[skillman]

The irony is that today, most of us who embrace the primitive life style are the ones who it would be the hardest on.

Steve

[Crossed Arrows]

skillman - You are spot on.  Anyone who has actually travelled and lived in the field for weeks or months at a time knows that it is physically tough.  There ain't no flush toilets or pillowtop mattresses out here in the Rockies and they are called Rockies for a good reason.

Thinking more and more about the original question of this thread, it just does not make sense that a guy living and travelling and working in the field would have a bunch of stuff hanging from the strap outside of the shooting bag.  I suspect that most of the vintage bags found have been set up for display at some time or passed on to a newbie who started hanging that stuff on the outside like many of us have done when just getting started with this addiction.  I know that my wife would always get a kick out of me fiddling with the setup of my shooting bag in my neverending search for just the right system.  Now I have it perfected for at least the remainder of this month.

[Chuck Burrows]

it just does not make sense that a guy living and travelling and working in the field would have a bunch of stuff hanging from the strap outside of the shooting bag.

While it may not make sense to you there are several period descriptions that state categorically that many of the mountaineers during the 1825-1850 RMFT era did carry gear on the strap. Here are some original descriptions of experienced mountaineers and not just newbies wearing gear on the strap - based on these descriptions I've carried most of the item noted (except a mold) on my strap for over 40 years here in the west (up to 11 months at a time living like the old timers ) and when done right it does not dangle, etc.

Rufus Sage's description of mountain men in general....
"His waist is encircled with a belt of leather, holding encased his butcher-knife and pistols—while from his neck is suspended a bullet-pouch securely fastened to the belt in front, and beneath the right arm hangs a powder-horn transversely from his shoulder, behind which, upon the strap attached to it, are affixed his bullet-mould, ball-screw, wiper, awl, &c. "
NOTE: The bullet pouch is carried directly in front and not under the arm - this method is described by not only Sage, but later by Kurz, and also can be seen in period paintings by Rindisbacher and others.

George Ruxton describing Bill Williams
"...In the shoulder belt which sustained powder horn and bullet pouch were fastened various instruments essential to one pursuing mode of life An awl with deer horn handle the point defended by a case of cherry wood by his own hand hung at the back of the belt by side with a worm for cleaning the rifle under this was a squat and quaint looking bullet mould the handles guarded by strips of to save his fingers from burning when running balls having for its companion a little bottle made from the point of an antelope's horn scraped transparent which contained the medicine used in baiting the traps."

Mariano Medina's pouch with attachments that attach to the bag strap


Tom Tobin is another who carried at least his mold on his pouch strap and he was one experienced and very tough sucker - read about his tracking down and taking the heads of the outlaws the Espinosas in the 1863 - here's a brief overview of that event
http://cozine.com/2008-november/the-rampage-of-the-espinosas-second-of-two-parts/

[WElliott]

I guess the original question posed relates to "mountain man" pouches.  But, for what it is worth, I have owned several dozen antique 18th and 19th century Eastern or Southern pouches over the years as that is my primary area of interest and knowledge.  Looking at the 10 antique bags that are in my room right now, I find that 5 have measures hanging from the strap (one of which also has a wire attached just above the measure to be used as a vent pick) and 3 have sheaths on the strap with a knife present.  That's it.  There are no empty ties where an accoutrement has been lost over the years.  I have found several bags which still had all the good stuff inside the bag you would expect:  bullet mold, balls, flints or caps, powder measures, patch material, and even a 1/4 size full 19th century can of DuPont black powder. 

From a contemporary shooter's viewpoint, when I shoot from a bag, I tend to hang everything I need on the strap.  But over the years, I have lost several vent picks and even powder measures that way - and that has not involved riding a horse or running through the woods.  Just target shooting.  It makes sense to me that our ancestors who depended on their gear for their very lives, and who could not easily replenish lost equipment, would have keep most of it securely tucked away in the pouch, not flapping in the wind.  Just my two cents worth.

[Crossed Arrows]

Chuck Burrows- I cannot argue with your documentation but I find it very strange to carry items outside the bag that are not used for loading each shot.  Carrying a container of powerful scent lure on the outside makes sense, but cvarrying a bullet mold, a cleaning jag, an awl, etc just goes beyond my comprehension. 

Speaking of illustrations, I know that artists will sometimes show items in their work as part of the message they are trying to convey.  So in this case illustrators might show items attached to the bag straps that would normally be carried inside,

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I use a system that embraces both methods of carrying possibles...tied to the strap, and stored within the bag.

This is the shooting pouch designated for my Hawken .62 cal rifle.  It is loaded with pockets...two divided pockets sew to the front of the bag right under the flap, a divider inside providing two full sized pouches inside the bag...a hanging pouch for balls sewn to the back of the inside wall of the bag, and one sewn to the outside of the back of the bag.  These pockets house my leather disc capper and bullet board/loading block, each of which has a leather cord tied to the strap.  The strap has a tube of leather that houses the shaft of my starter - a moose antler crown and 1/2" hickory shaft.  Above the starter, on a leather cord passing through a hole in the strap, is my 127 gr. brass tubular measure.  When in use, the measure is pulled up to the top, and the whang hangs loose.  When I want the measure, I simply pull it down, fill it and then let it drop.  The leather cord prevents its loss.  When I've loaded, I pull the cord again to return the measure to the top of its travel, and it stays there while I hunt.  I have a soft cloth bag inside the pouch for carrying worm, jag, screw driver, ball drawer, etc.  I have this set up on all of my bags, so that when I shoot on the trail, my hands go instinctively to the stuff I need without having to remember where the item is.  This set-up has worked for me for the past 45 years, and although bags have come and gone, the set up remains the same.  When I first started shooting BP, I guess I set up my bag in a way that made sense to me, and stayed with it.  Authentic - who knows? Does it work ?  Does for me!

[Dogshirt]

I set my shooting bag up like my tool belt. Everything ,just like you has a place and I know just where to reach for what ever, in either bag.
No looking.

[Habu]

how would a powder measure,be attached to a rile.

The one I saw had the pick on one end of a piece of codline about 12" long, and the powder measure on the other end.  It looked like the line was folded in half, threaded through the loop on the rear of the triggerguard, then pulled over the loop of the triggerguard. 

If that explanation doesn't make sense, send me a note and I'll set it up on my rifle and send a picture. 

[pathfinder]

 When I first started shooting BP, I guess I set up my bag in a way that made sense to me, and stayed with it.  Authentic - who knows? Does it work ?  Does for me!

And THAT'S what count's Unless your going for you PHd!