Reason for the old barrel being 'shot out'!!?

[Roger Fisher]

For you barrel experts out there. Case in point: My ol Getz .45   15/16 straight barrel was subjected to area of 70,000 rounds since 89. And she doesn't owe me a thing and served me well (and won some matches a time or two)  In any case keeping a book sized report short; last fall she would shoot to point of aim several shots then printed anywhere you can imagine. So, after trying the easy remedies (4./0 wool, champhering the muzzle again, different ball and patch sizes to cure the shredded patch problem with no luck) I decided to seperate myself from her clutches w/o filing to divorce her.  I dug in to the reserve and used other rifles....!  Shipped her off for checking and freshing.  The boys that did it called and said "We can understand why you can't shoot that rifle any longer!"  They had eyeballed her and poured the lap and pushed it through her gut.   Muzzle down  about 10 inches fine.  Breech up about 10 inches fine; but in between she was very loose and the lands rounded off>!
The 'boys' shaved .002 off the lands and some off the bottom of the grooves..  She ended up close to a 47!!  I got her back on Friday last and shot her Sat. then  Sunday at the Langhorne shoot taking 4 first places.  She now shoots (when I can find the front sight.)  My reasoning is that the lands were getting 'slapped' at times half way down from the 3/8 steel rod flexing against said lands over all those thousands of loadings and cleanings.   I am now loading v tight .020 teflon and .465 ball.  Just plain 'tight' but comfy enough with same ball and .015 teflon.    Soooo, what say you?  Am I on the mark with my reason for her getting battered half way down her tube OR?      

[xring2245]

Yup, sounds right.  Go to a wood loading rod?


James

[Dennis Glazener]

She ended up close to a 47!!  I got her back on Friday last and shot her Sat. then  Sunday at the Langhorne shoot taking 4 first places.  She now shoots (when I can find the front sight.)  My reasoning is that the lands were getting 'slapped' at times half way down from the 3/8 steel rod flexing against said lands over all those thousands of loadings and cleanings.   I am now loading v tight .020 teflon and .465 ball.  Just plain 'tight' but comfy enough with same ball and .015 teflon.    Soooo, what say you?  Am I on the mark with my reason for her getting battered half way down her tube OR?     

Absolutely you are correct. I have mentioned this before but I will again. Back in the 70's & 80's I was an active benchrest rifle competitor.  We had access to high magnification bore scopes that could inspect every inch of the interior of a barrel. Almost all the "worn out" barrels were caused by cleaning rods "bowing" into the lands, over time they wiped them out. Bear in mind that everyone used bore guides but this did not prevent the rods from flexing mid-way down the bore and "lapping" against a couple of lands.

Studies were done on what type of cleaning rods caused the least amount of wear and the winner was hard polished steel and even that needed to be wiped clean as much as possible to keep the debris from "lapping" the lands out of the bore. Soft rods such as brass caused far more erosion to the bore. Supposedly caused by the debris embedding into the soft brass. I would think the same would apply to wooden ram rods. I would think that shooting very tight patching would certainly cause the rr to flex up against the lands.
Dennis

[Dphariss]

What else has worn out in 70000 rounds?

Dan

[Roger Fisher]

What else has worn out in 70000 rounds?

Dan

Good question,, Figuring if I got lucky every day for the last just 70 years, thats only 25,550 'times' so I hope I have a way to go and make it

[Dphariss]

I was thinking of gun parts.

Dan

[Vomitus]

  That's incredible Roger. I'm guessing, but I'll bet an original would have been "freshed" out several times by 70,000!

[LH]

I went to a 5/16" ss cleaning/loading rod after using a 1/4" for the first two barrels in my .40cal offhand gun.  The bigger rod is some stiffer, but I can still hear it tink some.  I also made a bore guide that fits on the outside of the barrel and has about 2" of support above the muzzle to keep the rod centered and take up some of the slack to keep it from wobbling around.  I also keep a spare barrel for all of my target rifles.   

[Roger Fisher]

I was thinking of gun parts.

Dan

Shureyavus!

[bob in the woods]

How about the lock ?   Frizzen ?  I have a large Siler with about 25 thousand rounds, and I've smoothed the face of the frizzen. Otherwise it's good.

[Jerry V Lape]

I recall there was an article by the two brothers, Bevel up and Bevel down, in Muzzle Blast Magazine where they setup a machine to cycle various types of ramrods in sections of a rifle barrel to see which wore the muzzle the most.  As I recall, wood and brass were relatively harmless.  Steel, aluminum, and fiberglass were clearly worse.  But this test was dealing with just the wear at the muzzle, crown, and may not be totally accurate for the bowing contact issue deeper in the barrel. 

[Roger Fisher]

How about the lock ?   Frizzen ?  I have a large Siler with about 25 thousand rounds, and I've smoothed the face of the frizzen. Otherwise it's good.

Frizzen?? What frizzen   As I can recall this large siler is on 2nd main spring.. I seem to recall doing the back alley tightening of the 'hammer' on it's shaft.  One time or two Its been a long time.  Yes, she is a 'cussin' rifle.

[Roger Fisher]

I recall there was an article by the two brothers, Bevel up and Bevel down, in Muzzle Blast Magazine where they setup a machine to cycle various types of ramrods in sections of a rifle barrel to see which wore the muzzle the most.  As I recall, wood and brass were relatively harmless.  Steel, aluminum, and fiberglass were clearly worse.  But this test was dealing with just the wear at the muzzle, crown, and may not be totally accurate for the bowing contact issue deeper in the barrel. 

I recall their test also,.  Can't believe this super smooth stainless steel rod is worse than a wood rod and it's imbedded grit;  but it was an interesting test for certain.

[bob in the woods]

Here is a question ......what do you think would be the result if the barrel was a .54 ?    My underhammer target rifle is a .54 with thousands of rounds through it, but there is more room for the "flex" so it may not  actually touch the barrel.  I checked mine and it seems OK. Still shoots good.  I use a 3/8 in ss rod with muzzle protector.

[blackbruin]

Wow!

[smylee grouch]

I never would have thought a 3/8 rod would flex that much. Makes me think my 1/4 rod is way to flimsey, even with the bore protector. My so called 40 cal chunk gun with a real tight load combo will need a stiffer rod for sure.

[Larry Pletcher]

Roger,
If you mentioned this I missed it. Was the wear uniform all around the center? I wondered if the wear might be uneven based on how the rifle was positioned as you wiped the barrel. Just curious.

Regards,
Pletch

[Roger Fisher]

Roger,
If you mentioned this I missed it. Was the wear uniform all around the center? I wondered if the wear might be uneven based on how the rifle was positioned as you wiped the barrel. Just curious.

Regards,
Pletch

Thanks for the question .... I do not know!  It's certainly plausible.   I must ask the lads that freshed her out.

[JB2]

I've been wondering about similar things lately too.  Even with a muzzle protector, could we be causing the rod to bend with off-center force while pushing the rod down?  We try to not bend the rod, cause it breaks wooden rods, but with all the joints in motion our human hands and arms can't realistically create a straight-down force every inch, every time.

is it possible those off-center and inconsistent forces are causing the ram-rod tip to contact the barrel lands?  I wonder if loaded, but unfired roundballs might show witness marks from off center ramrod tip.  That would indicate that the tip was forced off-center from the ball and possibly contacting the lands.  Seems this could be as damaging to the barrel as the rod bowing.  Would it  also be more likely to happen in the middle portion of the barrel?

Can a longer 'false-muzzle' style centering device correct for inconsistent forces outside the barrel?
Interesting questions, even more interesting test set-up.

[Hungry Horse]

 When I started shooting black powder I wore out a barrel in a very short time, and so did several of my friends. I now believe, that the majority of the wear, came from the cleaning process, not the act of loading, and or, shooting the gun. Back in the dark ages ( when all of our hair was dark) the old timers insisted on a cleaning regimen, that was long, and tedious, at best. Us newbies, regularly joked, about shooting for a day, and cleaning for three. With some of the modern metal preservatives that are readily available at the local big box stores, getting every microscopic speck of fouling out of the bore is not as important as it once was. Such mundane products as antifreeze, or WD40, stop rust at least for the short term. I only use WD40 in my smooth bores, but antifreeze is a major part of the cleaning solvent I use for cleaning in the field. It works great. You do have to remember to dispose of the used solvent as you would anti-freeze of course. 

                             Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

There are erosion issues and wear issues with RB barrels related to the projectile/patch/lube/blowby. But usually this is worse at the breech end. The iron barrels were more prone to this than steel barrels and harder, more erosion resistant steels like 4150 are even less prone. Really deep grooves increase the problem.

Dan

[northmn]

Steve Garby had an article on cleaning cartridge guns which would apply to longrifles he likes a rod with a slot in the center that can take a patch an prevent the "bowing" wear talked about.  Just a thought.

DP

[Dphariss]

Actually the slot is 3" from the end is to prevent the rod from falling on the lands as the patch/brush clears the muzzle on a breechloader. So its not all that useful as a barrel protector in a ML. In fact I would rather nit have it in a ML only rod.
If the rod is stiff, like 5/16" steel or SS, bowing will be minimized.
Harry Pope had rifles he shot 50000+ from that were cleaned with steel rods, probably 1/4" since they were 32-33 caliber, and had they caused problems he would have used something else.
A muzzle/chamber guide is by far the most important for a cleaning rod, I use a 45-70 cartridge case with the primer pocket reamed to fit a 5/16 rod  for 50-54 45 calibers can use something with a 40 Sharps Straight base case/30-40 Krag if the neck is trimmed off. Checking the rod for straight is a good idea too.


Dan

[Roger Fisher]

Actually the slot is 3" from the end is to prevent the rod from falling on the lands as the patch/brush clears the muzzle on a breechloader. So its not all that useful as a barrel protector in a ML. In fact I would rather nit have it in a ML only rod.
If the rod is stiff, like 5/16" steel or SS, bowing will be minimized.
Harry Pope had rifles he shot 50000+ from that were cleaned with steel rods, probably 1/4" since they were 32-33 caliber, and had they caused problems he would have used something else.
A muzzle/chamber guide is by far the most important for a cleaning rod, I use a 45-70 cartridge case with the primer pocket reamed to fit a 5/16 rod  for 50-54 45 calibers can use something with a 40 Sharps Straight base case/30-40 Krag if the neck is trimmed off. Checking the rod for straight is a good idea too.


Dan

BTW:   I only ever used a wood rod thru the barrel in question when the rules so required (Rondys and such).  My loading and cleaning rods are 3/8 super hard super smooth stainless steel with a plastic guide.  Generally used over or bore sized ball loading tight.  With 70,000 rds there were a ton of trips thru that bore plus the cleaning   I agree if you want to get the breech clean you sure don't use a slotted rod. 

[bgf]

Roger,
I believe you, but I would like to see pictures and measurments, also, if you can get them.  What I can't figure out is what was the critical point of the wear, i.e., I know you brought this one back from the brink several times and that this wear must have been present for some time: What put it over the edge?  This worries me, because I've occasionally felt that "excessive" cleaning may cause more wear and problems than "adequate" cleaning.  Also, it seems that a tight cleaning patch might also actually contribute to rounding the corners of the lands with too many trips up and down the barrel trying to get the grooves clean, esp. if picking up grit.  Might it be better to brush a couple of times, soak, and wipe as little as possible when getting the barrel clean?

Finally, for the barrel wizards -- could the lands be sharpened up a bit by polishing with a tight, bore-diameter lap?  Assuming, of course, the wear is not too severe; obviously it would require a slightly larger ball afterwards and the grooves would be shallower, but probably not badly so for a few treatments.