Hide glue for wood repairs?

[rich pierce]

What kind of glue was used in colonial/Federal period gunshops?  Hide glue?  What are it's plusses/minuses compared to modern glues?  What's your favorite glue for a patch or restoration job?

[FlintFan]

Hide glue most likely would have been the glue of choice in the colonial period.  But I don't know how often it would have been used for gun repairs.   From the examples I have seen, structural repairs to gun stocks seemed to be accomplished with mechanical devices...i.e. pins, screws, sheet metal..etc. 

I'm sure there are examples of hide glue used for wood repair on antique guns, others on this forum will probably be able to describe particular guns that have used this method.   I do not think hide glue would be a good choice for any kind of major repair though.  I have used quite a bit of hide glue when relining vintage gun cases, and you defiantly need to be mindful of leaving them in a closed vehicle on a hot summer day.  More than once I have noticed how the glue has softened after I have removed the cases from a warm car after traveling.  Never to the point of having the lining falling off, but it definitely could be shifted with effort.  A gun is put under far greater stress than the lining of a gun case.  There are different grades of hide glue (melting points), for a gun repair you would want to pick one with the highest melting point you could find. 

[whetrock]

Several books and articles have mentioned its use in the time period you mention. In one of his videos, Hershel House mentions finding it was used in period construction of a wooden box lid. (Apparently he discovered this when the glue joint released under heat when the gun was damaged in a fire.)

There is a good summary available at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue  As that article states:

“The significant disadvantages of hide glue – its thermal limitations, short open time, and vulnerability to micro-organisms – are offset by several advantages. Hide glue joints are reversible and repairable. Recently glued joints will release easily with the application of heat and steam. Hide glue sticks to itself, so the repairer can apply new hide glue to the joint and reclamp it.”

I have made it and used it. What I made was plenty strong. I wouldn’t hesitate to use if I was going for total HC. But I haven't left it in a hot car (good warning from FlintFan!).

I have no experience with restoration. Can you add a colorant to hide glue? Also, it must be worked hot—it begins to gel as it cools. That might be a disadvantage if trying to do small repairs. But the reversibility of the joint—the fact that the joint could be dissolved—could be an advantage from a conservation perspective. But I’m speaking outside my experience, so I’ll stop here.

[Slow2Load]

Hide glue is gelatin. Just like Jello - ground up hooves but without the colors or flavors added.  
It is an old glue that is still in use today. Mix with water and heat to a low temperature. (I use an old coffee maker element)
It gives a very strong bond to closely mated surfaces. However, it shouldn't be used in applications will be exposed to the weather. The glue remains water soluble. Heat is the main method to "unglue" a seam.

[Joe S]

As far as I know, hide glue was the only glue available during the 1700s.  Hide glue is still used by traditional bowyers for laminating wood and horn, and for adhering sinew backing.  I’ve done a couple of sinew backings and have had no problems with them.  I also have an antique rifle with what appears to be extensive period repairs to the forend with hide glue.

Hide glue is water soluble, so it should be protected as much as possible in the rain.  As already mentioned, high heat will also soften the glue.  In spite of these shortcomings, it works well enough that people have used it successfully for thousands of years on weapons and tools that were used outdoors.

[halfstock]

Actually pine sap and ground up charcoal was used and is very close to J B weld, and it does work well.

[Mark Elliott]

I use hide glue for restoration work because it is reversible and it sets up quickly. Setting up quickly is an advantage when you have a stock in losts of small pieces.    It would have been the only thing available in the 18th or 19th century and was widely used, and is still used today, for cabinet work.  However,  it is not waterproof.    It you get it wet or above 140 degress,  it will come apart.   I don't think the heat is a big issue.   It is the fact that it is water soluble.   I wouldn't use hide glue to repair a working gun where mechanical strength is required.    When I am building a gun and need to glue something back.   I use either cyanoacrylate or Titebond III.   The cyanoacryate is mainly used to repair hairline cracks.   The Titebond III is used for all else.    

Hide glue really is great for restoration work.   The last gun I restored had a forearm that had basically imploded due to the stress of shrinking around a barrel that was inlet too tightly.   I had lots of small irregular bits of wood to glue back together.    I glued, un-glued, and re-glued many times before I got the stock back together satisfactorily.

[keweenaw]

And, of course, hide glue is the only glue used to put good violins together. 

[whetrock]

I use hide glue for restoration work because it is reversible and it sets up quickly. Setting up quickly is an advantage when you have a stock in losts of small pieces.    ...   It you get it wet or above 140 degress,  it will come apart.  ...
Hide glue really is great for restoration work.   The last gun I restored had a forearm that had basically imploded ...   I had lots of small irregular bits of wood to glue back together.    I glued, un-glued, and re-glued many times before I got the stock back together satisfactorily.

I don't mean to hijack Rich's thread, but I'm eager to learn all I can. Mark could you tell us how you "un-glued" the joints? (heat gun, torch?)

[JTR]

And, of course, hide glue is the only glue used to put good violins together. 

Just remember not to leave your Stradivarius out in the rain!  

For repairs, consider that most all modern glues designed for construction are stronger than the surrounding wood, so any of the Titebond, Elmers, etc, brand name products will be strong enough. Set time and clamping time will be a consideration depending on what you're doing, so check the label for those times. I've had excellent results with Titebond Translucent.
  
John

[Hungry Horse]

 As mentioned in a previous post pine pitch, that has been boiled, makes a pretty good primitive glue.The pitch must come to a boil, or it won't dry. It must be applied hot, as with hide glue. Pitch is more water resistant than hide glue. But, hide glue has more tack, and is more wood friendly. I believe most old repairs that are glued,with hide glue, and then wrapped with rawhide, are often sealed with boiled pitch glue, for weatherproofing.

               Hungry Horse

[bgf]

I'm thinking the old repairs with 1 square foot of brass sheet and 8 dozen nails and some screws probably did use hide glue as a supplement.  Perhaps they used that over the top approach to protect the glue joint from separation in case of rain or exposure to excessive heat -- it would have still held together and probably reset when cooled or dried?

For structural repairs without visible reinforcement, I have yet to find anything that tops the yellow Elmers "Carpenter's Wood Glue".  Technically, it isn't waterproof, but it has to be soaking wet for a long time to let go  and is usually protected by some kind of finish anyway.  It won't stain, either, but that can be worked around/minimized.

[Mark Elliott]

I use hide glue for restoration work because it is reversible and it sets up quickly. Setting up quickly is an advantage when you have a stock in losts of small pieces.    ...   It you get it wet or above 140 degress,  it will come apart.  ...
Hide glue really is great for restoration work.   The last gun I restored had a forearm that had basically imploded ...   I had lots of small irregular bits of wood to glue back together.    I glued, un-glued, and re-glued many times before I got the stock back together satisfactorily.

I don't mean to hijack Rich's thread, but I'm eager to learn all I can. Mark could you tell us how you "un-glued" the joints? (heat gun, torch?)

Pete,  I used a vinegar based product called De-Glue Goo that I bought from Highland Hardware.    It will strip wax but is otherwise pretty gentle.   You just squeeze it on the glue joint and let it sit a while.   I then use a tooth brush to clean off the soften glue for a completely clean joint to re-glue.   De-Glue Goo will work for any water soluble glue.   I have also used it with white wood working glue.   To remove cyanoacryate,  I got a super glue remover from Highland that is pure nitro methane.  Yep,  the stuff the run dragsters on.   You need to be real careful with that stuff.   It will dissolve just about anything.    Mark
 

[Joe S]

You can see some hide glue in the crack just in front of the lock.  There's a bunch more on the forend, but I don't have photos handy.

[Ed Wenger]

Rich,

Don't know about hide glue, but I've had really good luck with Accra Glass for restoration.  With a little coloring, you can blend in repairs fairly nicely.

This is a rifle that was broken through the wrist.  I put a wood biscuit in for added strength, then glued with Accra Glass.  I little "make up" after it dried, and it's pretty difficult to see.  The last photo was just the glue, no "make up"...





               Ed

[PPatch]

Wow, excellent job! What I want to know is how you went about aligning and in-letting that biscuit prior to glue-up? I have used a biscuit cutter but wouldn't put one in the same room with that old rifle.

dave

[Dphariss]

What kind of glue was used in colonial/Federal period gunshops?  Hide glue?  What are it's plusses/minuses compared to modern glues?  What's your favorite glue for a patch or restoration job?

A friend told me of reading an glue test in a Bowyers magazine that found that Knox gelatine (basically hide glue) was the strongest when mixed to the proper concentration.
I use Elmers Carpenter Glue or Titebond.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I have glued wrists with Elmers Carpenter then doweled the wrist with a rod set in Acra-Glas.
Acra-Glas is designed for wood they claim and is less brittle than some cheap hobby store epoxies.
I use it a lot. I use JB Quick for some things where color does not matter and speed is more important.
Good epoxy like A-G costs more but IMO its the best buy since its proven to be very reliable.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Nice fix Ed..
I love surgical tubing 
Dan

[rich pierce]

A slit bicycle inner tube works great also.  You can get a blown tube at any bike shop as they usually recycle them.  Ask them for one with the valve cut off so you can use it as a bungee.  Otherwise they think you're going to patch it instead of buying a new tube from them.  Cut into strips 3/4" wide, there's plenty of power there.

[M Tornichio]

I recently listened to a podcast that was on the mongal horde. One thing that I found very interesting was that the bows that they used had a draw weight of 150lbs. I did some research on them and found out that they are laminated together with glue. There was a description that said they used hide glue of some sort that was not water proof. This was not a prefered method. The glue that worked best was made from the air bladders from fish. It was water proof. A very important characteristic, since the men lived on the steppe. Hey they conquered most of the know world, so that glue had to be good.
Marc

[Jim Kibler]

I've not used hide glue, but I wonder about it's gap filling qualities.  In restoration, breaks occur, time passes, wood shrinks etc. and pieces don't always go back together well.  It's of course important to have very good fits on the surface, but sometimes the fits in interior regions are less than perfect.  So, I'm not sure how good hide glue would be in these cases.  This is of course where epoxy shines.

[bluenoser]

There was a description that said they used hide glue of some sort that was not water proof. This was not a prefered method. The glue that worked best was made from the air bladders from fish. It was water proof.

That would be fish glue - another glue with it's roots in antiquity.  Fish glue was commonly used in woodworking - I can remember it in my dad's shop - and, as I recall, it is no more water resistant than hide glue - unless additives are used.  Aluminum sulfate apparently works.  I wonder what the Monguls would have used.  It has good initial tack and, unlike hide glue which is usually hydrated when needed and applied hot, it typically came pre-mxed and ready to apply.

Laurie

[bluenoser]

Jim,

I have some experience with hide glue, but not a lot - a little violin repair.

I don't believe it has good gap filling qualities.  It is crystalline and, as I recall, tends to be brittle when the glue joint is thick.

Laurie

[PPatch]

Rich;

Found this video about protean glues, quite informative on the various types that can be purchased, mixing them, determining their strength and other facts about this type of adhesive. The site is about woodworking and inlay.

http://woodtreks.com/animal-protein-hide-glues-how-to-make-select-history/1549/

dave