Author Topic: square, octagon bore barrels, Repros available? (Read 10791 times)

Z. Buck · « **on:** January 04, 2009, 07:36:58 PM »

just what it sounds like, does anyone know if square or octagon bore barrels are available, if there is anyone that makes these or would be willing to make them? i have always thought it would be fun to build around one of these. i guess i dont have any real machining background at all but i cant even really imagine how there would be made aside from a zillion passes with a special bit in a rifling machine or perhaps forging over a mandrel and then cleaning that up... well anyways what do you guys think?

Zack

lew wetzel · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2009, 07:42:33 PM »

very interesting,wouldnt you have to have a mold made also?this sounds like it could turn into a very pricey project but you would really have a one of a kind rifle.....

Z. Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2009, 07:46:24 PM »

well as for this project im sure a mould would be the least of my worries, i even toyed with the idea of hammering them out of lead the way a could of blacksmiths i learned from had me practice certain techniques before moving to steel, but i dont think it would be that hard to make up a mould.

Ezra · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2009, 08:00:10 PM »

I have always rather liked these...

Ez

Jerry V Lape · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2009, 11:52:25 PM »

EZ, I like those muzzles with the exotic shapes too. However, I suspect they are the result of some creative coning at the muzzle on otherwise normal round bored barrels. The one at lower left certainly can be created at the muzzle as we have seen repeatedly on this board. Don Getz has done this one, among others. Spinning an irregular shaped piece of lead like a heart shaped or square one at a couple thousand rpm should produce some incredible drag and irrational side forces to ensure you would couldn't hit the barn from inside.

Ezra · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2009, 12:02:13 AM »

Quote from: Jerry V Lape on January 04, 2009, 11:52:25 PM

EZ, I like those muzzles with the exotic shapes too. However, I suspect they are the result of some creative coning at the muzzle on otherwise normal round bored barrels. The one at lower left certainly can be created at the muzzle as we have seen repeatedly on this board. Don Getz has done this one, among others.

Yes, I thought that originally also. But not so, according to Barbie Chambers. She and Jim apparently actually saw some of these in a recent trip to Germany. In particular, the heart shaped muzzle not only has a bore with a full length heart shape, it also has a twist to it.

Must have had a heart shaped mandrill and twisted the barrel while hot. Then filed it. Had to be a gunsmith showing his skills rather than practical application. I saw one of the cast "ball" for this gun somewhere, but can't remember where. Must be nice to have such skills. Making one today, if you could find someone skilled enough and willing to try would, I think, be prohibitively expensive.

Regards,

Ez

Karl Kunkel · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:30:08 AM »

I have been of the understanding that guns of this type were made for submission to the european guilds, as an application to journeymen status.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:38:45 AM »

I think the heart shaped bores are for shooting unfaithful lovers. The square ones are for shooting stakes thru vampires' hearts.

I think there is symbolic value, but not much accuracy in the shooting, eh.

Acer

davec2 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:43:30 AM »

I don't know why you would want to go to the trouble, but a bore shape like any of these, twisted or straight, can be readily produced by ECM (Electrochemical Machining). I worked with a fellow and we made some rifled, experimental, 20mm cannon barrels out of a proprietary, very hard, very high temperature resistant material. The final bore diameter and rifling were produced by ECM. The barrels came out perfectly, worked great in testing, and then disappeared into a "black" program. No square bullets though - all round.

As I remember from some of my old books, some square bore guns were produced in the Arabic world in the 16th and 17th centuries with interchangeable barrels - one with a square bore and one with a round bore. The square bored barrels were for shooting at "infidels" who were not worthy of being killed with a round bullet.

Brian · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2009, 05:33:04 AM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on January 05, 2009, 03:38:45 AM

I think the heart shaped bores are for shooting unfaithful lovers. The square ones are for shooting stakes thru vampires' hearts.

Acer

Yup - I'd go with that, although in the case of my first wife I'm really not sure which would be the most appropriate! Everything taken into consideration - I think I'd have to go with the square. Anybody know where I can get one - just in case she ever comes back?

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2009, 05:34:35 AM »

Seems to me that the upper right example posted by Ezra is a perfect example in understanding how these were produced.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2009, 07:30:08 PM »

I agree Jim, if I get your drift. Start with a small cutter, and keep shimming/increasing until you get to the shape you want. for the heart shape, I'd work a pointed tool out to the lobe of the heart, then switch to a round profile tool. Might need to start small, with several tool changes to a bigger tools as you cut.

doug · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2009, 09:15:32 PM »

I think the heart shaped bores are just an extreme version of Lancaster's oval bore with a groove added to create the point. I wonder about the square bore; perhaps it started as an extruded square tube and was then twisted

cheers Doug

Michigan Flinter · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2009, 02:46:34 AM »

The bores could be broached with the right set up to any configuration you come up with within reason. I maintained several broaches at G.M. that cut splines and hexagon . A cutter grinder made up some rifling plugs so he could cut all eight groves at the same time and he was going to broach the barrels.Don't know how it worked out never saw him after I retired. Eric D. Lau Riverdale Mi.

omark · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2009, 03:24:47 AM »

it was my understanding that the different bore shapes was an attempt to find the best bullet shape. in those days they were a little more ballistically / aerodynamically challenged than we are today. i also remember reading that the first shot from a new barrel was fired at the moon to "straighten" the barrel and guarantee accuracy. a poor shooting barrel was unbreached and put in a stream with the muzzle in one direction ( cant remember if it was up or downstream) to wash out the demons that caused it to be innaccurate. and an X on the bottom flat under the rear sight protected it from being bumped, etc.

Ezra · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2009, 03:51:20 AM »

Quote from: omark on January 06, 2009, 03:24:47 AM

i also remember reading that the first shot from a new barrel was fired at the moon to "straighten" the barrel and guarantee accuracy. a poor shooting barrel was unbreached and put in a stream with the muzzle in one direction ( cant remember if it was up or downstream) to wash out the demons that caused it to be innaccurate.

I'll have to remember those. Especially the one about shooting at the moon...

Ez

omark · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2009, 04:29:14 AM »

warning........ dont do this if you live in town!!!!!!!

Ezra · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2009, 06:47:20 AM »

Gene Carrell · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2009, 01:31:58 PM »

For a .451 octagon bore bbl., I would look to Euro Arms as they continue to build the repro Whitworth rifle. As near as we can tell, we brought the last two P-H Whitworth bbls in two years ago. They are now on rifles. Occasionally, you can find an octagonal bbl. on an original rifle. Last year, I picked up a 38 cal octagonal rifled percussion half-stock that was in overall poor condition, but a pristeen bore packed with dried grease. Got it at the flea market at Friendship.

Long John · « **Reply #19 on:** January 06, 2009, 04:05:46 PM »

While I suspect that some of those bore profiles were tried in the effort to develop a more accurate or easily loaded rifle - the octagon and upper right photos being examples, I think that many, like the heart shaped bore guns, were intended to show off the mastery of the gun making craft. Those guns were probably intended for very wealth nobles who commissioned the guns as art more than as utilitarian weapons.

Best Regards,

John Cholin, on the road again

deano · « **Reply #20 on:** January 06, 2009, 05:16:13 PM »

Quote from: Brian Dancey on January 05, 2009, 05:33:04 AM

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on January 05, 2009, 03:38:45 AM
I think the heart shaped bores are for shooting unfaithful lovers. The square ones are for shooting stakes thru vampires' hearts.

Acer

Yup - I'd go with that, although in the case of my first wife I'm really not sure which would be the most appropriate! Everything taken into consideration - I think I'd have to go with the square. Anybody know where I can get one - just in case she ever comes back?

Brian then I'd suggest building a double barrel for he x-wife just to be sure you get the job done!

Dphariss · « **Reply #21 on:** January 06, 2009, 06:46:31 PM »

The 7 sided bore was not that unusual. I had an identical bore profile in an original heavy 36 cal barrel back in the late 60s. It was turned at the muzzle for a starter as well.
The hearts and squares and such were likely experiments or show off pieces but who knows.
I would not want to bet that the heart shape would not shoot accurately.
Dan

Ezra · « **Reply #22 on:** January 06, 2009, 07:25:06 PM »

Some talented fellows made those barrels I posted, that's for sure.

Ez

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Author Topic: square, octagon bore barrels, Repros available? (Read 10791 times)

lew wetzel

doug

omark

omark