Collecting Contemporary Longrifles - some questions

[Wolfeknives]

I have been lurking on this forum for some time. I have read every post in all the different sections. I have also followed up with a search on all gunmakers I could find, closely studying the work of each.
I found myself drawn to the work of those who produce exceptional rifles in regard to fit and finish. Unfortunately these are also the makers who have a very long waiting list, or are not taking on any additional work. I have however managed to place an order with a couple of the makers whose work most appealed to me.
I have been collecting in other areas for many years. In all these collecting areas condition is of prime concern. I have noticed that many of the rifles produced today are "distressed", some more so than others. I am not trying to start any controversy, but can not understand the appeal of having a newly made rifle looking like a piece that has seen much use, and in many cases abuse. Surely they did not look like that during the period. To me they have a look of the antique rifles we see now, after many years of poor storage and exposure to less than ideal condition.
For my personal taste, I would prefer to receive a rifle that shows all the skill and craftsmanship of the maker without distractions created by blemishes. After all it is a item that was made only a few years ago, why would it want to pretend to be something else.
I am certain that there are many valid arguments against my thoughts, and I would love to hear them. I am always open to change my mind, and keen to learn about all aspects of collecting these beautiful pieces.

Wolfgang

[Collector]

Wolfgang,

The body and content of your post presents a question (or questions) asked and simultaneously answered.

The final arbiter of what is acceptable and/or desirable, is the purchaser and as noted, you've done your due diligence, made your selections and placed orders.  But, be forewarned that once you venture beyond great architecture, there is no school, or style or embellishments (or lack thereof) that will garner an all-encompassing, overwhelming and universal appeal.  Disclaimer: Well, none that I know of anyway.

A telltale, of your own introduction, is that the builders of these 'less-than-perfect' (my choice of words) have, in fact, a 2 to 3 year waiting list (and longer) which, though it contradicts your narrow (my word choice, again) collecting preferences, appeals to others; a condition indicative of a rather broad 'custom' market.

We look forward to learning of and seeing photos of your contemporary longrifles, as they become available and, of course, any antique non-cartridge pieces and/or accoutrements, in your present collection(s).

It's reasonable to assume, that you already have the disease (firearms/accoutrements) but have become exposed to another virulent, but non-lethal, collecting strain, which, like many others, has no known cure.

Welcome and good luck!

  



  

[rich pierce]

This is a recurring topic, but one that's not easy to search for.  Those who ask, "why would someone want a distressed new rifle" obviously would not want one and are unlikely to be persuaded differently.  Like turning a Chevy guy into a Ford guy by talking.  There's a huge variety in styles, periods, decoration and many other attributes of longrifles and we all have our preferences.  For some, a Bedford is a hockey stick, for others, a Christians Spring rifle is chunky and bulky.  Why do folks like what they like?

[Mike Brooks]

From a "distressed" builder's point of view, I build what I want to and what I'm interested in and turn away any work that isn't interesting. I like guns that look like the old ones that I have seen my entire life.  Distressed guns tend to be warm and inviting where "as new" guns can be very cold and lifeless. Just my very short view on why I do what I do.

[JDK]

A gun that is built new but looks like a well cared for 200 year old antique is an art all to itself.

As Mike said, the aged gun "speaks"....as if it has stories to tell of how it received every scratch and dent.

Many wish to own new guns that look new and want to impart their own story to the firearm through frequent and honest use.

To each their own....there are enough makers practicing in either or both methods to satisfy the market.  Enjoy, J.D.

[tallbear]

Wolfgang
This is a subject that seems to ignite passions on both sides.It is a subject that has no right or wrong answer.I have customers on both sides of the discussion.Some of my customers want "as new" rifles and some want slightly aged rifles.The customer has the final determination.If you prefer "as new" I say collect "as new".I have my favorites from both sides of the discussion.

Mitch Yates

[Eric Krewson]

I suspect there are two distinct classes of buyers of contemporary muzzle loaders, those who buy a gun for its artistic/ collector appeal and those who buy a gun to take to the field day after day.

My guess is the first mentioned group would appreciate distressed, wear patterns indicating a gun with some age on it.

The latter would be someone like myself who starts with a shiny new gun and will add their own wear patterns and patina, naturally, over time in the field.

My guns all look"distressed" from actual use. I agree with Mike, every ding and worn place in the finish of my guns adds life and indicates the gun has had an adventurous existence roaming the hills with it's owner.

I did cringe when I put that first scratch in an otherwise flawless finish on my rifle right after I made it but quickly realized maintaining showroom finish on a rifle that spent 50 or 60 days afield was impossible.  

[RAT]

I agree with the last statement. Add a third... those specifically using their guns for re-enacting. Much like an actor on a stage, a rifle becomes a prop, and adds to the characters portrayal.

I personally prefer the gun to look new. If I owned a gun from a certain maker well known for artistic aging, I'd go with what they produce because it's their art form.

[Jim Kibler]

I don't really look at it so much from the perspective of being aged, distressed etc.  There are a few people who do convincing aging; that is it has the appearance of the real thing, but most are just creating an effect.  Variations in surface texture and color to change the feel and add more interest to the piece.  For many, the whole goal of this stuff is simply to create more appeal to the final product.  To create a product that draws you in.  A gun has it, when you don't want to stop looking at it or don't want to put it down when handling it.  Texture and color can add a significant amount to this.  A simple example might be finishes used on arts and crafts style furniture and hardware.  Authentic, believable aging is not always pretty.  Sometimes it is, but often not.  Is the typical Hershel House finish finish truly representative of an original gun?  Probably not, but it has appeal and adds interest to the finished product.  I've made guns that are finished perfectly bright and new, but I also really appreciate some of the highly "aged" stuff that is being done today.  What I don't understand is when people have strong feelings against one or the other.  Good is Good regardless of the approach.

[Dphariss]

Artificially aged guns are for wannabes.
They wanna have a used gun but often do not even understand what a used gun REALLY looks like since they look at 220 year old guns OR the aged guns made to look like 220 year old guns. As opposed to one that was used and cared for over 5 or even 50 years. That it was  then battered about for 110-150 years in some closet or by its being given to some kid as a toy and it got beat to $#@* in the process well after it was "out of service" is apparently overlooked to ignored.
The guns did not look 200 years old when they were 5-10-20 years old. They would have looked pretty nice unless used very hard or abused.
But battered guns have become a fashion with some must have a "cool" looking beat up rifle, its like like torn blue jeans on a teenager.

As I have stated before in many cases this phenomenon reminds me of the "dog @#$%/!! on a pile of sticks" ceramic "art" I used to see in the pottery/ceramics magazines back when I subscribed to such things. So long as we call it "art" or think its "cool" I guess its not what it really looks like.
Dan

[rich pierce]

Definitive statements on matters of opinion are by definition unconvincing and cannot be "right". There is no right and wrong just preference. No need to denigrate others with different preferences.

[Topknot]

I for one like well done rifle whether it is new looking or old and beat up. To me its the architecture that determines if I like it.Myself, I pretty much like all the schools of longrifles, but I am partial to southern longrifles.

                                         topknot

[Jim Kibler]

Dan,

Speaking of "wannabes", that's how I see you and your work.  It's pretty amateurish in my view, but I get the feeling you want respect.  I guess you do have your "perfect" breeching to hang your hat on, though.  

I hope I've made my point...  Is this how the forum should operate?  You might want to consider a little more kindness and respect in your approach.

Jim

[Wolfeknives]

I well understand that there is no right or wrong in our choice of collecting interest. I also know from experience that we "mature" as collectors as we are exposed to, and get a deeper understanding of the items we collect. A number of years ago I met Jud Brennan at a custom knife show. He had one of his Jaeger rifles on his table. I was able to handle the rifle. It was tastefully distressed, but still showed the skill of the maker. I would have loved to own that rifle. At this point I am most attracted to rifles with a light patina, but without dings in the wood or pitting in the fittings / barrel.
I started this thread because I truly wish to understand the attraction to the very distressed rifles. I am open minded, and appreciate every collectors point of view. It is what makes collecting so interesting.
As I mentioned, I am very new to this field, and wish to get educated before I dive in. I have learned from experience that it is a mistake to purchase at random at the outset, and later realize that much of the collection consists of pieces we don't really enjoy.
At this point I am treading lightly. As mentioned, I have placed orders with two highly regarded makers. In addition I have purchased a rifle from Brant Selb to be carried int the field. I also purchased a set of old Westley Richards pistols, mostly because of their extremely fine condition.
I hope this thread does not degenerate, I am hoping to get a feel for the reasons that create the passion for our collecting choices.
Wolfgang

[Osprey]

It seems to me like you may need to decide if you're collecting or investing.  If investing you should worry about what others think and may think down the road.  If you're collecting just get what you like and enjoy them!

[Majorjoel]

I started this post more about antique original longrifles, but I guess contemporary work could become a passion because many do represent historical interpretations.    http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19529.msg184658#msg184658 

[Mike Brooks]

Cool, I've been a 17 year full time wannabe. I've always wanted to be a wannabe so my life is now complete. : I could build guns with a new finish but It's incredibly boring for me....I'd probably build one gun and quit.
 Honestly, build and buy what you like. Find a maker that is established with a name and builds what you like and go with them.

[Acer Saccharum]

I take the history, the culture, the events of the time, the style of firearms of that period and come up with a piece of historical fiction.

To me, gunmaking is an artform, a means of self-expression. It's my time and money, so I'll spend it in a way that pleases me. If you don't like my work, that's OK. Find some that pleases YOU.

I'll also finish my work in a way that fits with the theme.

If you're a collector, then buy what you like. If you're collecting as investment, buy the best your money can buy. The low to mid-grade stuff is not going to appreciate like the quality works by well known makers will.

[Collector]

I currently have an "incredibly boring" (his words, not mine) Mike Brooks piece, for sale, in the ALR Classifieds and featured in the Gallery.

So, if anyone is looking for an "incredibly boring" Mike Brooks longrifle... I'm your guy.

If this longrifle turns out to be THE singular, stand-alone, one-of-a-kind, never-to-be-made-again, thought about quitting but wasn't bored enough, at the time "incredibly boring"... (catch me before I have too much time to ponder on this run-on sentence.)  

[eagle24]

Artificially aged guns are for wannabes.
They wanna have a used gun but often do not even understand what a used gun REALLY looks like since they look at 220 year old guns OR the aged guns made to look like 220 year old guns. As opposed to one that was used and cared for over 5 or even 50 years. That it was  then battered about for 110-150 years in some closet or by its being given to some kid as a toy and it got beat to $#@* in the process well after it was "out of service" is apparently overlooked to ignored.
The guns did not look 200 years old when they were 5-10-20 years old. They would have looked pretty nice unless used very hard or abused.
But battered guns have become a fashion with some must have a "cool" looking beat up rifle, its like like torn blue jeans on a teenager.

As I have stated before in many cases this phenomenon reminds me of the "dog @#$%/!! on a pile of sticks" ceramic "art" I used to see in the pottery/ceramics magazines back when I subscribed to such things. So long as we call it "art" or think its "cool" I guess its not what it really looks like.
Dan

Dan, you have your opinion and that's fine.  Personally, I think you are wrong.  I hope you agree my opinion is fine as well.

[Shreckmeister]

I tend to follow Osprey's line of thought.  I see a collector as someone who buys what he likes because it feels good to
hold it and look at it and show others what he likes about it and if he's passionate enough about why he likes it, he
may even influence others to like it as well.  An investor, buys what he thinks others like and hopes to make a profit on it.  Personally, I would rather be the collector and ultimately be surrounded by what I like rather than surrounded by what others like.  I really like a contemporary rifle that has warmth and looks like it's 200 years old.  Not beat up, but having color variations where there would have been handling wear on the wrist and forearm.  Darkened to look like
aged finish.  Brand new shiny looking things leave me cold.  That's my 2 cents and you can call me any name you like.....online....

[Wolfeknives]

I just want to be clear, I am a collector and never buy as an investment. I very much hate having to sell anything. For that very reason I want to make certain that I will be happy enough with my purchases to keep them in my collection until my demise.
I also collect antique edged weapons. Over the years I have learned to appreciate and seek out examples with heavy patina, but no abuse. It speaks to the age of the piece.
Contemporary rifles do of course not have a natural heavy patina. While a few of the comments explain why some collectors like the aged rifles, it almost seems that we feel somewhat defensive. I truly wish to hear what you love about aged weapons, so I can look at them and consider a different and very valid point of view. We all have strong feelings about what we collect and make, which is good and as it should be. We also need to respect the choices made fellow collectors.

Wolfgang

[Collector]

Contemporary rifles do of course not have a natural heavy patina.

While a few of the comments explain why some collectors like the aged rifles, it almost seems that we feel somewhat defensive.

I truly wish to hear what you love about aged weapons, so I can look at them and consider a different and very valid point of view.

We all have strong feelings about what we collect and make, which is good and as it should be. We also need to respect the choices made fellow collectors.

Wolfgang

A casual observer, to these postings, would acknowledge that 'feelings' are a form of subjective 'intuition,' forming a context wherein there is no negative, no positive and no neutral and cannot be reconciled by observation or reasoning .  

If you're looking for an objective set of criteria that you can judge the merits of opposing/contrary opinion against... holding to strict interpretation... well, it just ain't gonna happen.  It's like trying (and boy, they do try) to prove a negative.  

Without making too fine a point, of it, it would appear that your opinions, on this topic, are as

intransient (related words: abiding, age-long, aged, ancient, antique, chronic, constant, continuing, diuturnal, durable, enduring, evergreen, hardy, immutable, inveterate, lasting, long-lasting, long-lived, long-standing, long-term, longeval, longevous, macrobiotic, of long duration, of long standing, perdurable, perduring, perennial, permanent, perpetual, persistent, persisting, remaining, sempervirent, stable, staying, steadfast, tough, unfading, vital)...

as say, my own.  Now that I've included myself, I guess, you could call it a 'finer' point.

This question (your question, actually) presents as a circular exchange of opinion (no facts to be found here,) masquerading (as they always do) as an ascending argument (more introductions = more important) because there is no basis or substantial merit to begin with... it's like climbing stairs to nowhere.
 
I don't mind the exercise, but aren't you tired yet?

[Acer Saccharum]

No winning this argument. By anyone.

Tho' many will try.......we just can't help ourselves. 

[Kermit]

Silliness. Buy what you want. Make what you want. This is a thread destined to produce heat, but little (if any) light. THAT'S what's boring--in my uninformed opinion.