Do any original Hawkens or Lemans exist with 8 groove or radiused rifling?

[redheart]

Hey Gents,

Has anyone out there seen original Hawkens or Lemans with radiused and/or 8 groove rifling?

[JTR]

Not a Hawken or Leman, but one of my Lancaster made rifles has a barrel with 8 grooves and a left hand twist. The rifle was made about 1790/1800, so I think a bit before the Leman factory.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'radiused' rifling?

John

[rich pierce]

I'm thinking radiused means round bottom grooves from a rounded cutter, like Rice offers.

[redheart]

Rich,

Yes, thats exactly what I meant to say. I hope that's the right term!

JTR,
Thanks for your input ,  that at least means it's possible!

[JTR]

Redheart,
Here's a picture of the 8 groove barrel.



And here's a couple of what I think you mean by radiused.





John

[redheart]

       Wow Jtr your 8 groove bore sure looks like it has Whitworth rifling!
      For picture 2 & 3 are the grooves radiused or only the crown?

[JTR]

The radiused barrels are rifled like that from one end to the other. Actually that's a very common type of rifling and will be seen on a lot of rifles.

The 8 groove one doesn't have much rifling left in it, and was obviously shot a lot.

John

[redheart]

JTR,

   Do you know what Whitworth rifling is?
   I only ask because pic. # 1 looks like it has to have octagonal rifling!
   Can we see more of the rifle?

[Bob Roller]

Whitworth rifling is HEXAGONAL--6 sides like the head of a bolt.

Bob Roller

[redheart]

Bob,

What a dope I am, you're right. It looks like octagonal rifling.
I guess I better go back to grade scool and learn to count.

JTR, Is it indeed octagonal rifling?

[JTR]

Yep, it has 8 grooves inside the barrel in a slow Left hand twist. Like I said, well worn but plainly visible.
The rifling doesn't look any different that what you'd see in a barrel with 7 grooves and a right hand twist, except for the extra groove and opposite direction.

John

[redheart]

Thanks John,

 Could I trouble you to send a picture taken dead on from the front looking straight down the muzzle. If you do, for God's sake please don't shoot yourself! I don't need the liability!!!  

[JTR]

Sorry redheart but the gun is with a friend, and isn't accessable right now.
John 

[redheart]

Thanks anyway John!

[wmaser]

I have an original barrel from that time period with 8 groove rifling. I don't know who's rifle it came from, but it was manufactured at the Worley barrel factory in Berks Co. PA. It is a half stock percussion. I restocked it in the Hawken plains style.
I also have an original leman full stock percussion but it has 7 groove rifling.
I could try to post some pictures if it would help.

[Mike L]

Just going over my rifles and wiping down the bores. Found that I have a F. Beerstecher , Lewisburg, PA. superposed load rifle with 8 groove rt. hand twist rifling. I've had it since 1991 and didn't remember that but did remember this post. Grooves are flat, lands wider than grooves.

[redheart]

Wild Bill,
Thanks for the info.
Can you tell me if your Leman's muzzle is coned with a hand filed rifling effect at the very front of that muzzle. I'm trying to get an answer on that one and no one seems to know what I'm talking about! Can you take a pic. of the muzzle to show the area of the bore at the muzzle about "3/4 down.

[wmaser]

Redheart, This is the best I coud do. I hope you can see what you're looking for.

[redheart]

Wild Bill,

Thanks much for the info and picture.
It looks like it has round bottom grooves, is this true or are the radiused cuts at the muzzle hand filed over square bottomed rifling?
Boy, I'd sure love to see pics of the whole rifle!!!

[wmaser]

Redheart,

I'm not sure about the interior rifling as opposed to that at the muzzle. The bore, in general, is pretty worn although it still shoots pretty well.
I have to travel to NC in the morning but when I return home next week I'll cast a plug of the bore to see what that might reveal. I'll also post some photos of the entire rifle.

                                                                                Wild Bill

[redheart]

   Thanks Wild Bill !

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

One thing that we should remember is that almost all original rifles had their bores freshened during their life, and probably freshened many times before they arrive at our time.  This means that the bore, lands and grooves, were recut.  Each freshening process slightly changed the bore configuration - the bore caliber increased by a couple of mils each freshening - start with a 0.442 bore, freshened to a 0.444 bore, then refreshen to a 0.446 and so on.  Also the actual final shape of the grooves, width, depth, radius or square, depended more on the history of the gunsmith (or gunsmiths) doing the freshening than on the original barrel maker.  The number of grooves and the twist was not changed by freshening, obviously.

Here is a photo of an original rifle bore freshening tool with the cutter in place to freshen the groove.  I am sure that you can see that the groove configuration or shape is set by this freshening cutter rather than by the original rifling cutter.  It is likely, if not truly provable, that a rifle barrel that started like as a 0.513 round bottom groove has come to us today as a 0.524 square bottom groove.  This cutter was used by the Fry brothers in Ligonier Pa in the mid to late 19th c.



Does this make sense?

Jim

[redheart]

Thanks James,

It makes perfect sense that when you examine an original rifle there is always a possibility that you're not looking at the original bore.

[wmaser]

Redheart, I haven't forgotten about your photos. My stay on the outer banks turned into an extended fishing expedition. Now that I'm home, I cast a plug of the bore and am searching for a decent camera.

Wild Bill.

[redheart]

  Thanks Wild Bill, that will be great.
I hope you caught plenty of fish and at least a few monster sized ones!