Fuller gun collection at Chickmauga Battlefield Park - PA long rifle

[PPatch]

On my way home from the Tennessee / Kentucky rifle show sunday I stopped by the Chickamauga battlefield to view (again) the fine collection of military firearms displayed there, ranging from matchlocks (2) through the M1 Garand and including many flintlocks and caplocks. All arms are from the Fuller Collection and were bequeathed to the Park Service by that gentleman. There are 346 mint condition guns on display and one could easily spend a week looking at them and learning. I highly recommend stopping by if you are ever in the Chattanooga area.

Below are photographs of a stellar condition PA long rifle in that collection. The maker is listed as Unknown, perhaps some of you experts will share your thoughts on whom might have made it. I suspect it has been worked over in restoration at some point in its life but remains a fine example of a PA rifle. The carving and engraving are in excellent shape.

Web images of the collection:
https://www.google.com/search?q=chickamauga+rifle+collection&hl=en&rlz=1C2LDJZ_enUS498US526&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=l0F1UdmmFYn68QTorYHoDA&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=685

Information on Chickamauga Battlefield Park:
http://www.fortogeorgia.com/chickamaugadolist.html

Photographs:

[Mark Tyler]

Judging by the condition, especially the engraving, it looks like it was made in the past 50 years.

[Buck]

Bonewitz or Figthorn, its certainly cleaner than you would expect. Mark I would normally agree, but I saw a Dickert in February that was in the same condition. Blew my mind and it was no doubt the real thing. Its hard to believe but they do exist.
Buck 

[Mark Tyler]

I don't doubt it could be an original. There are some Kentucky rifles out there that are still in unfired condition. Unsigned Bonewitz vs Figthorn/Fichthorn vs Reedy rifles are always a good debate.

[HIB]

Gentlemen,  The gun shown in the photos is a late [1810] John Bonewitz, Womelsdorf,  Pa.  It is one of five known Bonewitz rifles that have a patch box design often seen on rifles attributed to Leonard Reedy.  The design originated in the Bonewitz shop and was used by Reedy, Fichthorn Jr. and Bonewitz plus one other 'unknown maker'.

The 'Fuller Bonewitz' is a complete restoration; new finish, acid etched brass, polished lock, etc,etc,etc.  The restoration work was done by the National Park Service Restoration department according to the museum manager. The original cabinet identification placard had the gun maker attributed to a member of the Boone family because the thumb plate aft of the barrel tang was engraved with a 'B'. There is a hidden message in this entire statement!

The park/collection manager was gracious enough to allow a 'hands on' inspection of the gun which allowed the attribution to be 100% Bonewitz carving and engraving.

Regards,  HIB

 

[PPatch]

Buck; If you have or know of photographs of the Dickert your mention I would love of see them.

dave

[Buck]

Dave,
I do not, I considered myself lucky to have had the opportunity to hold it as it was not on public display. It was one of the best rifles I have ever held.
Buck

[PPatch]

Gentlemen,  The gun shown in the photos is a late [1810] John Bonewitz, Womelsdorf,  Pa.  It is one of five known Bonewitz rifles that have a patch box design often seen on rifles attributed to Leonard Reedy.  The design originated in the Bonewitz shop and was used by Reedy, Fichthorn Jr. and Bonewitz plus one other 'unknown maker'.

The 'Fuller Bonewitz' is a complete restoration; new finish, acid etched brass, polished lock, etc,etc,etc.  The restoration work was done by the National Park Service Restoration department according to the museum manager. The original cabinet identification placard had the gun maker attributed to a member of the Boone family because the thumb plate aft of the barrel tang was engraved with a 'B'. There is a hidden message in this entire statement!

The park/collection manager was gracious enough to allow a 'hands on' inspection of the gun which allowed the attribution to be 100% Bonewitz carving and engraving.

Regards,  HIB

Well there it is... Thank you sir. I walked away from the rifle wondering at what extent restoration had been performed on it. I now know its hard earned patina of 200+ years is lost, the same for most of the rifles displayed. The patchbox on the Bonewitz looks as if it might have been inlaid and engraved only yesterday. One can see remnants of patina on quite a few rifles in the collection, but for the most part they have been obviously worked over, and, by the looks worked on by the same "hand" or at least mindset.

Again, thank you for the positive ID and information.

dave

[WElliott]

Just another reason to keep good guns out of the hands of museum curators! 

[RichG]

a year ago I found a pamphlet at a bookstore in sisters Oregon about the fuller arms collection and was intrigued by a gun called an Indian musket. Always on the look out for something different. Stopped at the museum on the way home from North Carolina and took a bunch of pictures of the Indian musket and a Virginia manufactory rifle. Couldn't figure out what didn't look right about the muskets lock until I noticed that the lock plate and barrel were pitted and the hammer, frizzen, pan and various screws were shiny. Obviously made up to look better on display. The hammer was way to big to match the lock/pan. Still would make an interesting smooth bore. Haven't been able to find any info on the Indian musket,any ideas anyone?

[PPatch]

I too looked that musket over, got one photograph of it. The trigger guard is so "Hawken."



Close up from above picture.



dave

[G-Man]

I think that guard on the musket is a fairly common English style fowler guard of the 1790s-1820 era - obviously the style had some influence on the Hawkens and lots of other folks in that era.

 I think the lock is a total replacement - looks to be much bigger than the original lock that was likely in there.  I would expect something more like a bit smaller late Ketland sized lock on a gun like this.  Just my guess.

[Majorjoel]

I wonder what the side plate and butt plate on the trade musket look like? It has the same style of trigger guard that my English trade gun has on it.

[mr. no gold]

Looks like every gun in the building has been polished. Still, this is not the worst of the NPS misdeeds. Two of the worst, in my opinion, are these: A Christian Springs, Christian Oerter rifle with the name Godwin carved into the stock was on display at Valley Forge. This was one of the top Rev War guns known and had a huge history in that conflict. It was apparently displayed in a lucite case next to an exit door. A visitor noticed the bad location and commented to a ranger that it was in a vunerable location. The all knowing staff member scoffed at the idea that it could be stolen and it was not moved to a safer area. Some months later, it was stolen during visitor hours and has not been seen since, to my knowledge. In all liklihood the ranger is now retired on a fat pension.
Second example: The museum in the old brick fort at the Golden Gate in San Francisco had what some argued was the best known collection of military leather on display. The curator decided to revamp the displays and relegated the  pieces to cardboard boxes and barrels stored down in the basement. This happened to coincide with torrential rains which flooded the basement and the entire collection was destroyed. He too, is likely retired on a big pension.   
There are other examples that could be cited, but these underscore Wayne's admonition about guns and museums.
Dick

[Jim Kibler]

Must have been an English curator.

[Buck]

Or from Chicago.
Buck

[satwel]

The barrel of the Bonewitz rifle is now in the white. Is that how it left Bonewitz's shop or did the Park Service restoration remove any original finish that he might have applied? Is it impossible to know for sure at this point? I like the look of the natural patina against the curly maple but is that authenitc for a civilian rifle of that time period?

[PPatch]

There is some old pitting back near the breech and out near the muzzle. The rest is fairly smooth but show discernible scuff marks as if it had been sanded to about 250 grit. I remember looking at it and trying to decide if it was 220 or 320 and deciding it was in-between. I believe there is a coating on the barrel too, possibly lacquer, but can not state that positively. The metal just did not reflect or shine the way bare steel will so I thought "well, it is iron and maybe iron has a different sheen." I don't know. For sure the barrel has a slightly different luster than those rifles displayed around it.

[Jim Kibler]

Satwel,

It's certain all of these guns have been heavily clean and polished.  A very safe bet is that the iron parts were quite brown before cleaning.

[TPH]

As far as the "restorations" done, remember that Fuller himself may have been responsible for it. In the now distant past of the 1940s and '50s, many fine condition antique arms were polished to make them more "attractive and representative" of their time. What we now admire as patina was seen then as dirt, rust and verdigris and had to be removed, more often by the collector rather than the curator.

[Jim Kibler]

As far as the "restorations" done, remember that Fuller himself may have been responsible for it. In the now distant past of the 1940s and '50s, many fine condition antique arms were polished to make them more "attractive and representative" of their time. What we now admire as patina was seen then as dirt, rust and verdigris and had to be removed, more often by the collector rather than the curator.

Read the post from HIB on page one of this thread.

[TPH]

I read that. Not doubting HIB, but I'm not sure I believe the "museum manager".

[mr. no gold]

A number of makers sent their work out of the shop in the white, (barrels, locks) with no browning on them. The Lancaster makers seem to be the major group doing that. The spectacular Issac Haines rifle in the PA Historical Society is the best example that I can recall that has no barrel finish and that rifle is like brand new. The old collectors, (being one somewhat, myself) did scrub many fine old guns to rid them of the grime and make them look 'new' again. I did it a time or two. If the NPS hews to the 'shiney policy' they most likely are following the British protocols: 'shiney to the max!'
Dick

[TPH]

If the NPS hews to the 'shiney policy' they most likely are following the British protocols: 'shiney to the max!'
Dick

We don't have to worry about it Dick, that is far from the NPS policy - they do not adhere to the shiney policy.