Supposed King's Mountain Rifle

[Dennis Glazener]

We stopped by this museum on the way to the Norris TN longrifle show. I had been before several years ago and they had some nice Bean rifles on display. The Bean rifles were gone but this rifle was on display. Personally I doubt it was the rifle that Phillip Greever was carrying at King's Mountain but it certainly is a very nice rifle. I thought you might enjoy seeing it.

If you are ever in the area the museum is worth a visit. Address and links to it are shown below.
Dennis

Crab Orchard Museum
3663 Crab Orchard Rd
Tazewell, VA 24651

https://craborchardmuseum.wordpress.com/

https://www.craborchardmuseum.com/Changing%20Exhibit.htm

[ed1215]

I agree with you Dennis I don`t think that this is the rifle carried on Kings Mountain .. Just like Jim Bridgers Rifle it was one he owned but not one that was all over the Rockies with him ... But a beautiful rifle very nice wood

[Buck]

Dennis,
An attractive rifle, thanks for posting it. I am not an expert on Virginia rifles but I would think the rifle was made in the 1810 -1820 period.
Buck

[Dennis Glazener]

I agree with you Dennis I don`t think that this is the rifle carried on Kings Mountain .. Just like Jim Bridgers Rifle it was one he owned but not one that was all over the Rockies with him ... But a beautiful rifle very nice wood

Dennis,
An attractive rifle, thanks for posting it. I am not an expert on Virginia rifles but I would think the rifle was made in the 1810 -1820 period.
Buck

I told my buddy that was with me that I suspected it may have been his rifle but not at the time he was at Kings Mountain. I told him I would think that rifle was more in the 1810-1820 time period (same a Buck). Since I am not very good at guessing dates of rifles I would be interested in what others of you think. Isn't that Goulcher lock fairly late in the Flint period?
Dennis

[Buck]

Dennis,
The lock is what caught my eye. Plus the stock architecture.
Buck

[bgf]

Golcher would be late, probably replaced, but it looks like the original lock was also round tailed, which makes me think 1800 at earliest or later in general.

The only "early" feature I think I see is the depth of the molding on the toeline of the buttstock -- it seems to be relief-cut, but that may just be an artifact of the picture and/or a feature that the maker retained or re-employed later.  From the other features, I would guess ca. 1810.  I wish I had another Shaffer to compare, but 1810 SW Va. wouldn't shock me.  What is the evidence the TG was replaced -- it actually looks pretty acceptable?

On the other hand, if the provenance is solid (unlikely), it might tell us more than what we think we know now.

If I had three hands , I would say that I am a little concerned about the wear on the stock where it looks like the flint hammer stop rubbed, but that is probably due to difference between original and replacement flintlock.

[JTR]

I don't see much of anything that would date this rifle that early.

Also, it looks like the same guy 'restored' this one as did the Bonewitz that ppatch posted in the other thread!  

Thanks for posting the pictures Dennis!

John

[Buck]

John,
Funny you say that, I had a Bonewitz flashback also. The lock plate looks like it fits pretty snug. Dennis what do you think, you saw it first hand, do you think it is original flint? Or is it reconverted?
Buck

[oakridge]

The article says it was once converted to percussion, but has since been restored. Whatever that means.

[Dennis Glazener]

The lock plate looks like it fits pretty snug. Dennis what do you think, you saw it first hand, do you think it is original flint? Or is it reconverted

I couldn't tell much about the lock. The text says it was converted to percussion then reconverted. The stock looks to have been cutout for a flint cock but for all I know it may have been for the replacement cock.
Dennis

[iloco]

I need to ride over the Mountain and have a look at that rifle.  I am only 30 minutes from Tazwell.

 I live just a few hundred yards from where Gen Campell lived and is buried.  He married Patrick Henrys sister who is also buried in the cemetary.
 Google Aspenvale if interested in the burial site.

[Virginiaboy]

That is a Jacob Shaffer rifle, I have seen that rifle an it was NOT at King's Mountain Jacob was born in 1783 so it couldn't have been there, thanks for posting pics they would not allow me to take photos of it. One thing is the trigger guard looks more like a Honakerthen a Shaffer but from research lately it is possible Shaffer learned from Honaker.

[Dennis Glazener]

"I have seen that rifle an it was NOT at King's Mountain Jacob was born in 1783 so it couldn't have been there, thanks for posting pics they would not allow me to take photos of it"

Just as we thought, probably a later rifle owned by this person. It does say that the trigger guard has been replaced. Still a nice looking rifle.

Dennis

[Virginiaboy]

It's a shame they ruined the barrel with all that garb engraved on it!

[Virginiaboy]

I have an appointment this Saturday to view and handle this rifle for my research on J. Shaffer, anything you guys would like for me to look for and relay back to you all?

[Dennis Glazener]

Virginiaboy made more photos of the supposed Kings Mountain rifle. As I understood him the museum wants to have the rifle looked at by a local collector and to research the date/name of the maker to see if there is anyway the King's Mountain story is accurate. He asked what traits would indicate the rifle was made after the 1781 battle at Kings Mountain. (other than the supposed maker was not born!)

I gave him my thoughts on why I don't believe its a Rev War rifle but I am a novice, maybe some of you more advanced collectors can give some that I didn't, here's my take on it.

it has a single lock bolt which was normally a percussion era trait, very few flintlocks were ever built using only one lock bolt and those were late in the flintlock era. Mostly AFTER the use of percussion locks showed up in the South. Not sure about the width of the butt but most rev war era rifle had wide butts some exceeding 2 inches. Also normally flatter i.e. fowler. The lock appears to be much later than what a Rev War rifle would have, most of them were much larger locks. Many, not all, rev war rifles would be single trigger and with a wooden or much simpler patchbox. Not sure what caliber it is but if small caliber i.e under 50 that denotes later rifle. Also most Rev War era guns have massive width in the breech area if not the entire barrel length. On the order of 1.20" or more. That rifle does not look that wide in the breech.

This rifle, if I had to date it, would be circa 1820-1840 and MAY have a replaced lock as well as other restoration work, certainly HEAVY refinish.

[PPatch]

Before reading your take on the rifle Dennis I looked at the photographs and took a guess at 1830 or even 50 with a lock conversion. It just shouts that to me. But like you I am not any sort of expert.

dave

[Virginiaboy]

Thanks for posting the pictures!! When I first went to the museum and met the curator I pulled out 4 8x10 photographs of the signature of Jacob Shaffer and we were both 100% in agreeance that it is Jacob Shaffer of Wythe County's signature. After three days I received the email of them trying to disprove all the proof I had brought forth.

[Virginiaboy]

I received word that the rifle will be re-labeled correctly

[jdm]

Virginiaboy  Nice work. It might not mean much to some people. Those of us who love history appreciate you setting the record straight.

[Dennis Glazener]

Virginiaboy  Nice work. It might not mean much to some people. Those of us who love history appreciate you setting the record straight.

Great, now if someone could do the same for the one that is/was in the visitors center over at Guildford Courthouse we could feel like we have made a dent in these mis-labeled Rev War rifles
Dennis

[Virginiaboy]

Will it actually happen, I do not know. Originally I wasn't gonna stir up a hornets nest but after watching the curator tell a 15 year old boy the story behind the gun I ha to tell her that it was not the gun he used in the battle. Either way the rifle is a very nice one and will remain preserved. I hope the family stops engraving on the barrel now!!