Carving Drawing

[J.Cundiff]

Deep breath... now exhale... 

To me, this is where I kick the sleeping lion in the corner of the room, so please, don't pull any punches! I need to make absolutely sure this drawing looks right before I start hacking at it with the chisels... so if you see something that I'm not seeing that will make the gun look retarded, PLEASE say something so I can fix it now before it's permanent!

Thanks in advance for your help!

The design is the same design Mr. Shipman used on his Early Schroyer rifle he built a while back. You can see the pics of his gun here: Early Schroyer Rifle

And... here's my drawing:


I'm gonna eat some lunch, and ponder it, and try not to throw up. LOL

[Jerry V Lape]

The curves into the partial volutes at the toes of the  cheek piece aren't smooth transitions. Same goes for the partial volute above the rear end of the cheek piece.   The stems on the carving behind the cheek piece all appear to be parallel sided which is not the most attractive form. 

[J.Cundiff]

Thank you Jerry!

Okay, I understand what you're saying about the parallel stems behind the cheek piece... I will work on that.

I'm not sure I follow exactly what you're saying about the partial volutes at the toes of the cheek piece and above the cheek piece.

[Acer Saccharum]

The drawing looks a little crowded toward the cheek. There is a lot of open space to the right of the scroll. It seems like you could elongate the scroll a bit to the right, and make more use of the open space.

Stretch the main scroll left-to-right some. It looks a little hunched up, it's taller than wide.

[Rich]

1. There is a major flat spot where the scroll meets the cheek piece.
2. The incised scroll end seems incomplete. It seems to need to finish curving around.
3. the incised line goes to the corner of the butt plate on the original.
4. There are two lobes or leaves on the original carving under the cheek piece.
5. I would consider making the large C scroll wider at the lobes and tapering as they proceed along so that you do not have parallel lines and so that you have room to model the scroll without making them too thin looking. There are some color pictures of this rifle in the Gunsmith of Grenville County. It is listed as a Resor rifle, but it's the same one.

[J.Cundiff]

Oh awesome! I didn't know there were pics of this gun in that book! I will definitely look at that! Thanks for that tip!

Okay, I took Jerry's suggestions, made a few changes, and here's an updated pic. I REALLY appreciate the help!

Acer, someone else mentioned the space behind the cheekpiece... probably should stretch it out some.

Take a look, the parallel issue should at least be better now.

[J.Cundiff]

1. There is a major flat spot where the scroll meets the cheek piece.
2. The incised scroll end seems incomplete. It seems to need to finish curving around.
3. the incised line goes to the corner of the butt plate on the original.
4. There are two lobes or leaves on the original carving under the cheek piece.
5. I would consider making the large C scroll wider at the lobes and tapering as they proceed along so that you do not have parallel lines and so that you have room to model the scroll without making them too thin looking. There are some color pictures of this rifle in the Gunsmith of Grenville County. It is listed as a Resor rifle, but it's the same one.

Thank you Rich! I purposely left off the leaves on the original, as well as I'm kinda doing the design directly under the cheekpiece a little differently.

Gonna go look at the Gunsmith of Grenville County book for a bit, then start stretching out the scroll.

[Rich]

The photos are on page 26 and 329.

[smallpatch]

Like Acer said, stretch that C scroll behind the cheekpiece toward the buttplate.  It should be the largest element of that part of the carving.

Also, all of the scrolls are a little cramped up as well.  Should be more flowing. 
I know I'll ruffle some feathers here, but study the Golden Mean a little.  It works.

[J.Cundiff]

No feathers being ruffled... this is my first attempt at this stuff. I know I suck at it... but I can fix it and make it better with guidance, so please... do not be afraid to hurt my feelings.

Here's the re-work. After studying the color photos in GGC, I was able to more clearly see what was happening, especially under the cheekpiece.

[gunmaker]

Getting there.

[mark esterly]

study your example more.  the forward part of the c scroll runs forward and becomes part of the cheek moulding.  you have it layed out behind the moulding. fixing that will open up the scroll more.   drop the front lobe of your main scroll closer to the bottom moulding line. a line drawn along the bottom of both lobes should be parrallel with the barrel. just another opinion.

[Jerry V Lape]

It helps me to remember all of these elements are representations of living plants and to visualize how they would actually grow. For example, that secondary stem which come toward the rifles toe, would come out fairly narrow and swell to about twice in width before it split.  The end of the line deliniating the upper edge of your main scroll is a gouge which is wider at the end and it makes that rounded tip look like the end of a leaf, narrower and more pointed than you show it.  The volutes are stylized fiddle heads as on a fern or acanthus and the lines will be smoothy curved without any sudden direction changes.  If you have examined a fern shooting up in the spring you will know how it sort of rolls out of the stem.  Try to give life to these forms and they become more graceful - and for me easier to visualize as I carve and mold them.  When you carve this I would point out that the area on the butt side of that upper tendril reaching for the corner of the butt,  is lowered giving greater appearance of depth to the pattern.  I learned a lot from seeing how Jim Kibler created depth in his carving.  Much more interesting than looking like spaghetti on a plate.   

The original is found on page 416 of Rifle of Colonial America volume II.  If you don't have access to that send me a pm with an email address and I will send you a copy. 

[Don Getz]

Please........follow the advice given above.   I would erase the whole thing and start over.   Check out Bill Shipman's carving
and any others you can look at.   The gun appears to be a Chambers early lancaster kit, therefore I would look at some
Dickert carving.   Do not try to be creative, try to COPY a good one.   Also, try to find a nice, bold moulding for the cheek piece,
it can do a lot for the gun and is so simple to do.   A gun without that moulding just isn't finished.......Don

[Jim Kibler]

Your eye needs to develop.  Keep studying examples and ask yourself why some look better than others.  I would also suggest that some Lancaster carving might be a good place to start.  The back to back c-scroll carving used by Dickert and others is pretty basic, easy to accomplish but also looks good.  One thing that may help is to try not to look at your entire design at once.  Look at the individual components.  These need to look good individually and as a whole.  Focus on the major elements of the design; the backbone.  This is typically composed of C and S scrolls.  Learn to recognize a good shape to these elements.  For example, look at just the main c-scroll of your design.  Does it's shape look good? How would you improve it?  When drawing a design start with these backbones.  Get the overall structure of these looking good and then add the remaining elements.  Keep going.  It's not easy at first.

Good luck,
Jim

[greybeard]

I personally like to study the drawing in a mirror. Gives you a whole different view.
Good luck         Bob

[J.Cundiff]

I am basically trying to copy Bill Shipman's rifle, as well as the original (now that I've seen it in GGC). I'm not sure why I should erase the whole thing and start over Don... is the whole thing that far off? Yes, it is a Chambers Lancaster, with one of your barrels in .54. While I like some of the Dickert carvings, this is the carving I want to do on this rifle... I'm just not interested in doing something else, so I need to get this one right. 

Jerry, the plant growing thing helps. I'm not sure if I can find some imagery to help me see it, but I'll look. I do not currently own a copy of RCA Vol 2. I do own Vol 1... getting a copy of Vol 2 is on the "to do" list. I'll send you a PM.

I stepped away from it for a while, and ran some errands. I'll start working on it again tomorrow. I can already see some places that need work. I'll keep at it and post another pic tomorrow.

THANK YOU everyone for your help! It is much appreciated.

[J. Talbert]

I'm away from home so I can't check out the original, but I trust that Bill Shipman's rendition is at least as good if not better than Schroyer's.  I think you have chosen an awkward design for a beginner to pull off well.  Schroyer's carving varies considerably.  I would go so far as to call some of it quirky.  I think that's why a couple people have suggested possibly copying another original pattern.
That said...
Your last drawing is definitely better than the earlier ones, but there are still a few areas that could be improved.  Study and compare yours side by side with Bill's.  Look for size and position of elements.
I still see some flat spots and some variations in the width of some elements.  Also on the upper right tendril, following the s curve at it's origin, the curves should generally progress from larger at the base to smaller at the tip.

Hope this helps!

Jeff

[J.Cundiff]

Jerry Lape has been extremely kind and generous, and has been helping me work on this today via e-mail. We've made some really good progress, and I think it's almost there. I totally understand that this carving is likely not ideal for a beginner to pull off... but I'm stubborn. I think if I can get the drawing right I'll be ok. I've been looking at the original from the photos in RCA... much clearer and has helped me see what the carving is doing a LOT. This still probably isn't plumb done... but hopefully it's a lot closer than I was.



More updates to follow I'm sure.

[Dave B]

JC,
That is a marked improvement from where you started. Looks like you got to look at #95 in RCA II Your details show you were paying attention.  I was playing around with your design having traced the shape of the butt stock off the screen of the computer and attempted to use your details but give them a little tweek to what I though might be a better arrangement.  Then thought to find the example Bill was using for his inspiration and found it on page 416.  I traced out the details for comparison. Several ways to skin the cat I expect. Even the Masters had difficulties getting a line right while cutting in details.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

The main C scroll has a point at the top where the small scroll form dips down

and those two counter balanced scrolls at the bottom of the cheek piece look crowded to the bottom moulding line to me.

also I think if you're not going to put a bold moulding on the cheekpiece it might look better with the top hard edge softened and rounded a little.

[J. Talbert]

The individual elements are much improved, but the whole package still has issues.
To my eye yours differs from Bill's in some critical aspects.
Comparatively... Bill's left end volute is smaller and higher in relation to the rest of the design.  In fact, Bill's whole design seems to be slightly smaller, lower, and rotated a bit clockwise, bringing the bottom righthand element more into the corner of the toe.  The effect of this is to better fill and balance the space.

Just how I see it
Hope this helps...

Jeff

[J.Cundiff]

Gentlemen, again, thank you very much for the feedback.

Micah, thank you for noticing the bump in the scroll. I have fixed that. I also agree with your idea of rounding and softening the top edge of the cheekpiece, and will do so.

Jeff, I have pretty much switched from using Bill's gun as the source to using the photos of the original rifle from RCA. The original carving is not rotated quite as far as Bill's carving, and the stems of the main scrolls have more beef to them than his do. Also, the left end volute you mentioned is lower and larger on the original. There's also more gap between the scroll and the cheek, allowing the room for the small chip carvings in that area that Bill omitted from his work. That being said, I'm not necessarily opposed to extending the rearmost stem a little further down towards the toe, abstracting from the original somewhat (similar to the sketch Dave B came up with), if it will improve the design.

Here's the latest photo:

[J. Talbert]

J.,
Not having RCA II here with me, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage, but shifting to the Schroyer (I'm going from Dave B's drawing), compare the overall shape of the main c-scroll there to your latest rendition.  If you can, imagine stripping away other elements and consider only the main C-scroll.   Can you see the difference in the shape of the Schroyer as compared to yours?  This the backbone of the design.  Getting it right is essential to the whole design

Once the main backbone is there each smaller element has to work on its own, AND as it relates to the overall design.

This whole discussion would be so much simpler face to face

Jeff

[J.Cundiff]

Yes, I know what you're saying... and realize too, that his sketch is from one of my earlier attempts. I believe my current attempt much more closely matches the original.

Here's a screen shot I took of the photo from RCA: