earliest Virginia rifles

[Mike R]

A book I am reading states that the earliest references to rifles in the colonies come from Virginia and date to the 17th cent. One archeology find of a rifle is dated pre 1640. An estate list shows a rifle ca. 1680s and another dated 1702.   Any one hazard a guess as to what these would have looked like? The author says these would be "pre-German" immigration [implying they would be English or whatever as the area was settled by England].  I used to have a reference [misplaced] to an ad ca. 1680 for rifled barrels in Virginia.  Were rifles made in VA way back then?

[rich pierce]

These are deep dark mysteries, for sure.  Different authors have researched the numbers of gunsmiths in the colonies at different periods and have come up with low numbers for the first third of the 18th century and very low numbers for the 17th century. Grinsdale's "Flintlock Fowlers" indicates that fowlers were the first guns made in America.  He re-stated the numbers of gunsmiths that Kaufmann and Sellers documented in colonial America (east coast).  17th century- 5 or 8 gunsmiths, total. 1700-1725, 4 or 7 gun smiths total were documented by those 2 sources.  1725-1750, 12 gunsmiths documented by each of those 2 sources.  In contrast, by 1775 the numbers jumped to over 100 documented gunsmiths working in the colonies.  These are likely underestimates but the trend may reflect the population boom from 1750 on, bringing the need for more tradesmen to meet demands, and the colonial system, where good were supposed to be purchased from the mother country, was also weakening somewhat after 1750.

We assume that most of the work of the early gunsmiths was repair work and re-stocking.  The purchase of rifled barrels suggests making new guns from new parts, doesn't it, since shot out rifle barrels can be readily "re-freshed".  Without any further data, I'd speculate that early Virginia rifle guns pre-dating the influx of Germanic tradesmen looked like the earliest English rifles, with less refinement.

[G-Man]

It really makes you wonder, doesn't it?

The only English rifles I've seen from the 1600s are post-Restoration era, late 1600s and have a lot of continental influence.  Basically they are very Jaeger-like and predate what we tend to think of as the English sporting rifle form which evolved in the Georgian period.  You tend to see less and less continental influence in these guns as the Georgian style matured - the Turvey rifle is a good example of a piece in the transition - the Georgian archticture is pretty much there but the mounts retain that earlier, Baroque looking influence.

What an English rifle of the pre-English Civil War era might have looked like, I have no idea.

Guy

[rich pierce]

Equally mysterious is who would have owned rifles before, say, 1740, and how  and where they would have been used.   Were they playthings of the wealthy?  Or tools of those who explored, surveyed, and traded in the back country?

[Mike R]

Equally mysterious is who would have owned rifles before, say, 1740, and how  and where they would have been used.   Were they playthings of the wealthy?  Or tools of those who explored, surveyed, and traded in the back country?

There were certainly plenty of southern folks plying the backwoods--Carolina Traders reached Arkansas before 1700. Extensive trade networks were in place long before the mid 1700s--and not just a few armed conflicts took place prior to the F&I War [7 Years War], north and south.  Guns in general were expensive for common folk, but I expect if your life/trade depended on it you "afforded" one.  Generally speaking, however, rifles were more expensive to produce than fowlers and the rifle culture really did not seem to begin until the 1750 +/- date. Even George Washington bought a rifle then.  D. Boone's first rifle was bought ca.1746.

[AndyThomas]

Gill, in  The Gunsmith in Colonial Virginia, lists at least 9 gunsmiths in Virginia before 1700.

He also states that "the inventory of the estate of Ralph Wormeley, recorded in Middlesex County in 1702, included amoung twenty-one guns, a 'Rifile Gun.'"

Hope this helps,
Andy

[flintriflesmith]

Thanks Andy--you kept me from having to brake out Harolr Gille's book. I guess Grinsdale missed that resource when he was writing!

Just to throw in another factor. 17th - century imigrants to Virginia were instructed to come well armed. Broadsides distributed in England gave specific instructions on what to bring in terms of arms, shot, powder, etc. After the 1622 Indian uprising this instruction was taken fairly seriously, at least for a while, but the inventory of 1623 showed some counties short on militia arms. Some speculate that reporting low numbers was a ploy to recieve government guns fro militia use.

Before 1650, or so, about half the new arrivals to VA died of disease. They called the many illnesses "seasoning." That must have left a pretty good supply of used guns! Of course we have no way of balancing that against the number traded to the Indians when food ran out.

So I agree with those who have said that most work of very early smiths was probably repair.

Gary

[PGosnell]

Mike,
I would very interested in reading the book that you mentioned.  Can you cite the reference?
I would also interject that a rifle in pre-1700 Virginia need not have been Virginia colonial or even English in origin. 
Paul

[Mike R]

Mike,
I would very interested in reading the book that you mentioned.  Can you cite the reference?
I would also interject that a rifle in pre-1700 Virginia need not have been Virginia colonial or even English in origin. 
Paul

The book is American Rifle, a history, by Rose, new out on the shelves. But it is a compilation and not all of his sources are reliable [eg, he uses Dillon fro some "data"].  However, one of his sources is the one mentioned above that has the 1702 date.  I have lost my reference to imported rifle barrels in the late 17th cent into VA, but that implies maybe some rifle building here before 1700--I agree however that most gunsmithing here early on was repair and restocking.

[Greg Field]

Before 1650, or so, about half the new arrivals to VA died of disease. They called the many illnesses "seasoning." That must have left a pretty good supply of used guns! Of course we have no way of balancing that against the number traded to the Indians when food ran out.

So I agree with those who have said that most work of very early smiths was probably repair.

Gary

That's 'cause they were indentured servants (white slaves) who were worked to death to get maximum benefit from the investment before hte 7 years was up.

[rich pierce]

I am interested in who would have rifles as opposed to smoothbores, and how they would know about and obtain rifles, given that the English culture was not as rifle oriented as the German culture in the late 1600's to early 1700's.  Let's assume for the sake of discussion that it would be those persons who were trading or surveying in the interior. We can use Squire Boone as one example, but that is 1740's, and I am sure that by then many were aware of the capability of rifles because they were in use in European conflicts. 

At earlier dates, it's still a big mystery to me as to how a person would decide they needed a rifle, then how they would go about obtaining one.  Could not go over to Cabela's.  Perhaps there would have to be enough demand to induce some trader to bring some rifles among a shipment of arms, or someone would have to own or obtain a rifle in Europe and bring it here when they immigrated.

Is it possible that some traders or diplomats were trying to "one-up" the competition with the Native Americans and offered selected "chiefs" rifle guns to compete with "chief's grade" fusils?  Just speculating.  I assume the Native Americans were always looking for ways to achieve military superiority over traditional and new enemies while keeping casualties to a minimum. A rifle might be the ticket.

[Mike R]

I would speculate that as big game hunting [as opposed to fowling] became a lucrative trade [as well as pastime for some] in the colonies, the already proven [in old world Germanic states] advantages of the rifle would have recommended it to the colonial Nimrod...surely the fame of the rifle in Europe predated the colonies.

[flintriflesmith]

This book:

British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840, by DeWitt Bailey, Ph. D, 2002, Andrew Mowbray Incorporated publishers, Lincoln, RI.

has some interesting material on the subject under discussion. Bailey has documented some of the earliest references to use of rifles in England and in the colonies. To me the chapters on use of rifle by Native Americans were worth the price of the book.

Gary

[flintriflesmith]

That's 'cause they were indentured servants (white slaves) who were worked to death to get maximum benefit from the investment before hte 7 years was up.

Our research says it was because the Europeans, regardless of social class, were dieing because they were being exposed to diseases they had no naturel immunity to. Diseases not found in Europe.

Gary

[flintriflesmith]

...At earlier dates, it's still a big mystery to me as to how a person would decide they needed a rifle, then how they would go about obtaining one.  Could not go over to Cabela's.  Perhaps there would have to be enough demand to induce some trader to bring some rifles among a shipment of arms, or someone would have to own or obtain a rifle in Europe and bring it here when they immigrated....

Rich,
Before 1700 game in Virginia included not just deer but wolves, bear, elk and buffalo. One look at a big old elk or wolf might be all it took to make someone want a rifle!

Here's an interesting quote from a 1739 letter to England from Virginia that shows how quickly the big game hunting moved west.  "... the bears, Panthers, Buffaloes and Elks, and wild cats are only to be found among the mountains ... and hunting there is very toilsome and laborious and sometimes dangerous.  Yet the Common Sort of People who live among the Mountains kill great Quantitys of Bears every year ...."   

As to how they got them... the trade system of the 17th and early 18th centuries was very different from that of the later 18th century. The population in VA was widely scattered and towns capable of supporting merchant stores were practically nonexistent. Planters along the waterways took advantage of this by taking goods from England in return for the tobacco they exported. They had to take either trade goods or credit on their account in England because England would not allow cash to be sent to the colonies.

They told their agents, called "factors," what goods they wanted and theres were delivered directly to each plantation's wharf. The planters then sold those goods to their less well-heeled neighbors for more tobacco for the next outbound load.

It was no extra trouble or expense to bring in a custom order item if someone requested it. In clothing, for example, the records show the ladies of Tidewater VA were often dressed in the latest London fashion--ahead of most of England. A rifle might have required six months lead time but would have been easily available for a price.

Gary

[Larry Luck]

For an interesting description of Virginia in the early 1700's by a Swiss traveler, try this link:

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/johnsgermnotes/germhs19.html

Beginning at Note No. 470.  It continues at this link:

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/johnsgermnotes/germhs20.html

Rifles are mentioned, but not described in detail.

Larry Luck

[PGosnell]

Thank you Larry,

It is often a mistaken that our English colonies were homogenous.  The fact is that Europe, though defined as Nations had various immigrations between countrys, most of which was driven by either religion (freedom and persecution), war or commerce/trade.  The same was true of the 13 colonies.

[PGosnell]

recommend that this thread be moved to Antique Gun Collecting

[Ed Wenger]

Great thread!  And thanks to everyone for some great info.

Larry...  I really enjoyed the link you posted.  There's some really cool information about the area I live in; southern Fauquier County.  Brent Town, Elk Run, Marsh Run...  all are within walking distance.  Thanks!

Ed

[long carabine]

 So to look at pictures or diagrams of the earliest Virginia rifles where would I look? This style of rifle always amazes me because they are so simple looking. Tim

[rich pierce]

Yesterday Larry pointed out a Swiss account of travels in America during the period in question and rifles are mentioned though not in detail. 

I agree, the rifle perhaps achieved its ultimate status as an indispensible tool as well as an art form here in America.  It was ideal for the needs of the frontiersman, and in the earliest days, everything was the frontier.  I think I need to start thinking of the immigrants to America as innovators, eager to try new things (like the rifle) in the New World.

I obtained an original, 28.5" swamped "jaeger" rifle barrel that is about .62. It does one turn in about 24" but has 8 deep grooves.   I am not sure of the vintage of the barrel, which came out of the South.  Some think that during the start of the War Between the States, some flint "jeagers" were obtained and converted to percussion and maybe it is one of those.   I'll need to fresh it out and fill in the drum-hole.  It will probably be .64 before I am done.  I hope to use this to create a fantasy early "English import" rifle stocked in cheap plain English walnut.  It probably won't differ that much from the Chambers Eanglish Sporting Rifle model based on the Turvey except being plainer. Will use an early Ketland or the Davis round faced lock, probably.

[mr. no gold]

A good overview of the European/Native confrontation can be found in the Anthro book:
"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. It is pretty academic, but is loaded with some good information. The early colonists died for the most part from dietary deficiencies. There were virtually no diseases in the New World to plague them other than what they brought with them. Intestinal parasites are a different story, but they would not have played much of a roll where widespread morbidity occurred.
It is perplexing that all of the old firearms did not make it down to our time. Guess that there were too many requirements made on them for them to have survived.
Dick

[rich pierce]

Old guns often get handed down to kids who eventually wear them out, ruin or lose them when they can afford something better.  Sometimes due to sheer numbers, guns survived (like the thousands of 1863 Springfields still around).  But early on, the total number of colonists, and hence their arms, were very few.  When we look at what has been found of the French trade guns (parts in Native American barrels, plenty of re-stocks, but almost zero examples in original condition), it's clear that many guns just got used up.

[voyageur1688]

 The survival rate of guns from that time are pretty much nonexistant from what I have been able to find online. As for the number of gunsmiths, a large percentage of them are probably not recorded in books. About the best way although very time consuming to find out how many there were is to go to the archives for each area and look in the register to see what the census says and then to see what the other records for that year and person state. To show an example of how so much information is not found in many books-1 of my ancestors was listed in our family tree as to have been a gunsmith in Deerfield Mass. in the early 1740's until his death in the late 1770's after the revolution. I had sought help here but was unable to find anyone who had any information on him, and had found answers by contacting the Deerfield historical society.  Their records listed him as a gunsmith in that area during those years as well as being a tavern and innkeeper and of being the holder of various offices for the community. I have a copy of a receipt from him for a "John Awkins gun" he had sold to a Col. Worthington in 1757. The original receipt is in the possession of the Smithsonian Institute, so I know it is legitimate.
 I feel that to find out an idea of what the rifles of Virginia of that era looked like, you should look at what those of the most common colonists of that time then look at ones from the same areas, from a bit later and make a comparison as to what the similarities and differences are. By doing a comparison of different national styles from that time and then from a short time later, you may be able to form an idea from there.
 Hope this give some ideas.
  Without having surviving examples from Virginia, I feel that a blend of the different ones would be acceptable to most people.
 Todd

[Larry Luck]

Dick's book suggestion is quite a good one.  Diamond's "Collapse" is interesting as well, but deals with unrelated topics.

Also, "1491," which is a description of pre-Columbian America and the aftermath on Native American populations is a good read.

I'm currently reading "The European and the Indian" by James Axtell, a history professor from my alma mater, William and Mary, which has a number of ethnohistorical essays on that relationship.   "The Unkindest Cut of All:  Who Invented Scalping?" was a pretty good chapter.

Larry Luck