Author Topic: Please Help Identify My Rifle  (Read 18231 times)

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2013, 04:28:02 PM »
 For what its worth, my opinion is this is a Young made rifle. The short flared engraved cuts, that are buried at the end, and then dressed off, are distinctive. They appear in some form on all the Young rifles pictured.

                      Hungry Horse

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2013, 06:42:21 PM »
jdm....I am not at all concerned about you "high jacking" this post. On the contrary you have taken it to unexpected places and a great discussion. That kind of side by side comparison study is excellent and I wish it happened more often because I learn a great deal from it. I very much appreciate your insight....I'm just soaking it all in. I know that there are others on this sight who have thoughts to contribute and I hope that they will choose to do so.

The engraving comparison that you all just referred to through pictures and comments...is something that my untrained eye would not have seen...thank you....it  greatly helps me start to see what you are seeing.

I do have a question concerning rifles from this group of makers being discussed...Kuntz and Young....and the region in general....are there particular barrel makers associated with them...and if I can ever find some way to make that tang screw move again....might I find a barrel makers name or mark?

Also, I have read a reference to RCA 42....which I do not own....and it describes a front sight that sounds  similarly marked as this one. Can someone who owns this book share with me who that rifle was made by....and if there is a picture of it....is it in fact a resemblance to this one?

Thanks,
Jeremy

eddillon

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2013, 07:22:50 PM »
Jeremy, I looked up RCA 42.  It is similar to the so called "Edward Marshall" rifle.  Very Germanic.  No reference to or picture of the front sight.  Are you sure the information you received is for # 42 or could it be another one? 

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2013, 10:01:50 PM »
Thanks for looking that up. I found the reference again....it is at E. Kettenberg's site in the "Conclusions,etc." section which I now see is a continuation of the previous section on the Marshall rifle.... and it is a reference to RCA 42....but...as I look again it seems to state that it is a semicircle/ dot pattern along the front sight. Very interesting article though....with some apparent potential connections to the region.

Thanks again,
Jeremy

eddillon

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 02:42:00 AM »
Assuming that these three could be by the Young family, which Young?

Offline Buck

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2013, 03:46:43 AM »
Ed,
William, Peter, or Jacob would be the safe assumption. They fit the probable timeline (late flint early percussion). Jim would have a better idea as to the possible maker. I assume that these rifles were made in the late 1820's.
Buck   

Offline jdm

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 04:38:25 AM »
The side hinge box with the dog I believe is John or John Jr. My guess on Bucks is also John or John Jr.  If  I remember right they both died within about six months of each other . I looked it up. Both died in 1813.One was 62 the other 31. The rifles that I've seen of Peters   ( maybe three or four) were more a Philadelphia style. I 'm afraid to guess has to who made the other two in this post.
 
 
To make the Young family a little more complacated there were other Young's in Easton . They may or may not have Benn related to this branch of the family . Henry,his son John,John Jr. and brother Peter.

Hungry Horse thinks he sees similarities in the engraving of all three rifles. There may well be. My eyes aren't good enough to tell. It is my own feeling that they are all Eastern Pa.
JIM

Offline Buck

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 05:17:54 AM »
Jim,
I thought it was a little later than 1813. I also thought it to be a reconversion, but several advanced collectors believe it to be original flint. It's also is a large cal. (56 or 58).
Thanks
Buck

eddillon

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 09:00:30 AM »
The hinge on mine (Ed) and Jeremy's (vtbuck223) appear to have the same construction.  The engraving on Buck's fancy rifle and mine are the same hand.  Toeplate engraving on both is convincing.

Offline bama

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2013, 06:26:35 PM »
Guys if you are interested I have extensive pictures of rifle 42 on my web site and I think I have a couple of shots of the front sight.

www.parkerfirearms.com the site comes up as Calvary Longrifles. Look in the area called the Naked Longrifle
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 01:43:23 AM »
Jim.... thanks for the link to your site and the pictures of rifle 42...nice rifle....nice site!

While searching the net I did find this John Young rifle....like mine...the patchbox has no screws and is completely pinned on. I don't know if this proves that my rifle is a John Young...but it seems like a very interesting connection given what has been shared here in the previous posts concerning the Youngs.  Here is a link to the site: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14627/lot/25/

Also...with much effort... but gentle persuasion I was finally able to remove the tang screw.....and I  got the barrel removed from the rifle. The sidelock screw passing through a hole in the breech plug...puzzled me for a moment as I went to remove the barrel. However, I am assuming this is fairly common to kentucky rifle barrels?  Though I could find no marks on the barrel....I thought you all might like to see the pics. The lock...has only one mark on the inside which appears to be a  .S    I am assuming this is an English made lock?  Thanks again for all of your responses....much appreciated.




Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2013, 05:17:03 AM »
    If this gun wasn't built by Henry Albright, or a student of his, (which is very unlikely), it would be a surprise to me.  I have been a long time admirer of this man's guns.  He is the only gunbuilder known to me to have ever used a sideplate of this design.  Even though he originally worked in Lancaster Co., PA, where his earlier guns used a straight rail on the trigger guard, as most all Lancasters, after marrying his second wife Catherine Beck, his trigger guards took on the more curved rail as the Beck  style trigger guard, much like the guard on this gun. The latch on the patch box is very similar to the style also used by the Becks.  The engraving on the patch box is very similar to Albright's style of engraving.  Even though I have never seen a patch box of this design on one of his signed guns, he used several different designs of patch boxes, more than most any gunbuilders of the time, everything from the Lancaster daisy, a horsehead style, double dove and others.  When it comes to Henry Albright's stocks, you cannot go by the architechture.  He used more than one style unlike other gunsmiths of the time.  In the book, Behold the Longrifle, is a signed Henry Albright rifle in the Bedford Co. style with all of the inlays and carvings of the Bedford style but with a horsehead patch box.  This man was apt to use any style stock that he wished to use.  Joe Kindig believed this man to be of little wealth because he seemed to travel alot.  Once he learned his craft in Lancaster Co., he spent a year or so in Ohio before returning to Lancaster, PA.   So, he was apt to have learned several different styles in his lifetime of patch boxes and stock architechture.    Alan
Alan K. Merrill

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2013, 11:47:23 PM »
Alan....thanks for your insight. In my initial searching...I did see the side plates on Albright  rifles no.24 and no.25 in "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle...".  Kindig notes that it is an "unusual" side plate.  Have you seen other Albright rifles with this side plate?  You have also suggested that the engraving is similar....are there any other characteristics that I should look for? Are there any good references that you can point me to that have Albright rifles in particular that I can take a look at? Any particular rifles that stand out to you that show the engraving similarities? The side plate alone certainly seems like a connection that is impossible to ignore...especially since it seems to be a fairly rare style to use...and you have stated that you have not seen it used by anyone else.  I know others here have pointed to Kuntz and Young....but I want to get this right....and I appreciate your opinion that Albright is the likely maker of this rifle.  Jeremy

Offline Buck

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2013, 01:40:36 AM »
A.Merrill,
The Albright that you speak of that was stocked in the Bedford style is actually a restock by John Amos. Look at "Gunsmiths of Bedford, Somerset, and Fulton Counties" by Whiskers pg. 51 and I quote "Henry Albright rifle restocked by John Amos."
Buck
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 01:45:42 AM by Buck »

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2013, 01:52:13 AM »
I am sorry to bother you fine gents again....but I'm hoping that you would be willing to answer a couple more questions for me as I continue my research. I just got a copy of Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850 by Johnson. I am wondering if the rifle I mentioned previously and again with a  link  here: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14627/lot/25/
is the same rifle as the Young listed on p. 22-23....they appear to be....but the photo quality is so poor that I cannot be sure. The patchbox on this rifle appears to be pinned on as well. Secondly, the John Young rifle on p. 7 of the same book has a patchbox that is clearly held in place completely by pins. The only other rifle that I have been able to  see this on is by J. Neff and there is a clear pic of it in Hornbergers book on Berks Co. I am trying to determine how common this is. Many of the reference books I have seen contain photos that are of such poor quality as to be useless in trying to observe such details. I also have not come across any others on the internet. I don't have Chandlers Patchbox books and I am not enough of a collector to want to drop "2 fitty" on it at this point. Can anyone tell me....are there many other examples of pinned on patchboxes from various makers in there? I am trying to determine  if  2 clearly pinned on patchboxes....maybe a third on known Young rifles....mine potentially a 4th....consist of a pattern that is significant in making an attribution....or is this a more common trait?   

Offline Buck

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2013, 02:20:48 AM »
VTBUCK223,
I recently looked at a Jacob Kuntz rifle that has engraving on it that appears to be identical to yours. PM me your email and I will share the pictures. After you see the pictures you should be satisfied.
Buck

Offline jdm

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2013, 03:10:17 AM »
VtBuck223, The rifle in the auction and the one in the book are the same.  Bill Guthman was the owner. I  have two rifles  I believe are from the Young family . They are not pinned .   JIM
JIM

Offline jdm

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2013, 04:01:18 AM »
. Can anyone tell me....are there many other examples of pinned on patchboxes from various makers in there? I am trying to determine  if  2 clearly pinned on patchboxes....maybe a third on known Young rifles....mine potentially a 4th....consist of a pattern that is significant in making an attribution....or is this a more common trait?   
[/quote]

 To attribute a rifle to a specific maker using one thing can be a little risky. The more identifying features the better. Stock architecture, patch box design, carving if any. The engraving on the metal work. Trigger guard ,lock plate. patch box release,toe plate. The hinge on the box , but plate ,nose cap, ECT. The more of these thing that line up the more certain the attribution. Thew search is fun . Enjoy it.
JIM

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2013, 04:43:32 AM »
Thanks Jim... my interests are too varied and I will never have enough exposure to these rifles to become the experts that you all are...still...it  is a blast to get a glimpse into your  world....I see what keeps bringing you back again and again...a lot of fun....and I have learned a great deal. Thank you all for making this site exceptional.

 After seeing Bucks pictures I also have no doubt  that this rifle is  a Jacob Kuntz....thank you Buck for sharing them with me...that absolutely made my day! Much appreciated.

Offline JTR

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2013, 05:05:40 AM »
vt,
I know you don't have it, but a quick look through a few pages of the patch box books shows that pinned patch box side plates with screwed finales are very common.

Pinned side plates and pinned finales, like yours, are less common, but certainly not rare.

Probably most common are screwed sides plates and finales.

John
   
John Robbins

Offline Buck

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Re: Please Help Identify My Rifle
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2013, 12:34:21 PM »
vtbuck223,
Your welcome, glad I could help.
Buck