Author Topic: How do I fix this?  (Read 15905 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2013, 03:42:28 PM »


Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2013, 03:44:19 PM »
PS

To do this right may require a deeper breech plug.
I do not notch breech faces.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2013, 03:55:30 PM »
Ah Keb, you must have been doing a little cherry picking with your photo choices.  Like others have said, you'll find locks positioned either way.  Yes, re-conversions, new locks etc. cloud the issue some, but this aside, there is no doubt that both methods were used enough that you couldn't argue that there was some standard practice or rule.  As far as appearances, I don't think it makes that much differnce.  That is about 999th on the list of importantance in making a good looking gun. ;)

Offline Curt Larsen

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2013, 04:17:40 PM »
Hi:  The person making the internal coning tool is Tom Snyder of Houghton, MI on our site.  You might send him a PM on the availability of his tools.  Internal coning along with notching your breech plug would seem to solve the problem for me.

Offline Keb

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2013, 05:08:14 PM »
Ah Keb, you must have been doing a little cherry picking with your photo choices.  Like others have said, you'll find locks positioned either way.  Yes, re-conversions, new locks etc. cloud the issue some, but this aside, there is no doubt that both methods were used enough that you couldn't argue that there was some standard practice or rule.  As far as appearances, I don't think it makes that much differnce.  That is about 999th on the list of importantance in making a good looking gun. ;)
Actually I wasn't "cherry picking". I found all the photos I posted at this link.
I don't happen to agree with you about it being 999th on the list of importance in making a good gun but think it's as important as any other feature of a "good" gun. :/

Offline Captchee

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2013, 01:03:11 AM »
Quote
PS

To do this right may require a deeper breech plug.

 i think thats probably the case as if i understand the situation correctly , he doenst have the depth to do it that way Dan

Quote
I do not notch breech faces.

 neather , here or there Dan .
 i would have to go dig through my boxs of old original parts but  i belive i have a couple plugs with V notchs in the plug face . i also have a couple plugs from  french precussion SXS that have  nipple holes tapped  through the face of the plug .

 myself i dont  do that eather . as i said , if the lock plate has not been inlet yet , normaly there is room enought  to slide the lock forward and solve the issue  or at least come close enough that enlarging the pan  would solve the issue .

 Frankly ,   the whole idea of having a lock pre inlet ( most cases   excluding  chambers )
 Is a pet peeve of mine .  Not only do I feel it’s a waste of money  but it’s a ripe off .

 The reason is that they don’t inlet the lock . All that’s  done is to  hog out  the mortise with a router .
 Leaving the customer to still have to  inlet the lock plate  and in a lot of cases deepen the  inlet anyway .
  So the customer ends up having to do the  inletting that’s going to set the lock true  and support the lock plate  correctly . If they are capable of that , its  just alittle more work , with the same tools to do the complete inlet  .
 IMO its very much like charging a drilling fee . ??????
 What gets drilled ?
 How do you drill from the tang to the trigger when the tang hasn’t been inlet yet  and the triggers have not been inlet to the point  they set as they should ???
 I had one poor fella bring me a pre-carve that he paid such a fee on . The only thing that got drilled was the lock bolt holes .  But guess what , not only did the front hole , locate the bolt right into the  elbow of the main spring but the rear bolt  would have  interrupted the  travel on the tumbler .
 The butt plate had pilot holes drilled , but the butt plate itself had not been inlet  to the point where those holes would have even worked .
  He had paid to have the under lugs  also dovetailed . But the front lug put the  pin hole right through the  back of the nose cap  .
 I wont say where that pre-carve assembly came from as we frown on that here .  Ill only say it was from a  more reputable place  and that I have seen  enough of this type of thing from them to tell folks to not pay for anything but a barrel and RR inlet . Do the rest yourself and it will save you a whole lot of heartache

Offline little joe

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2013, 03:57:49 AM »
Check out the Jeager rifle thread on here. The pan location is a toss up.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2013, 05:24:53 AM »
Yeah, the first thing I thought when I saw the last jaeger was "@!*% if only that pan lined up with the breech"... ;)

Offline Keb

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2013, 03:19:54 PM »
That's what I thought too :/

Offline Herb

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2013, 03:40:59 PM »
64 is old?  Maybe I got more advantages than I knew!
Herb

Offline frogwalking

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2013, 06:00:34 PM »
Herb,  I t hink  how one gets to 64 that makes a lot of difference.  I am like the old man who said; "If I had known I would live this long, I would have taken better care of myself."  I don't complain much as I have two very good friends who are battling cancer and one who has already lost the fight.

Note:  I am grinding out the pan with  my mototool to make the cavity wider.  It is working very well and I anticipate the problem will be less in a few hours.  (I will be able to move the flash hole forward a few hundredths.)  Thanks for those who have provided well thought out and helpful suggestions.  For the others, thanks for sharing, as I am used to folks thinking I know nothing at all:  I am married.
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline frogwalking

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2013, 01:16:51 AM »
Thanks folks.  I did grind the flash pan hollow wider.  It went very well, and looks good.  I then direct drilled the vent.  I removed the BP to check where it came out.  It entered the bore a few thousands in front of the breech plug face.  I deburred this and reinstalled the BP.  Next, using the tapered reamer Jerry Lape suggested, I tapered the flash   hole from the outside.  The total length of flash hole is .30 inch, with the tapered portion going .21 of that.  I was being very careful to ensure I did not open too much.  I can always tweak it if the ignition is slow.  I will let you know how it fires in a month or two.
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline Chowmi

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2013, 07:55:14 AM »
Okay, this entire discussion has piqued my interest and I can't stay quiet...
I have a Chambers Early Lancaster kit, and the Jim Turpin video to go along with it.  Both the white lightning instructions and the video recommend installing the touch hole liner in a position that would then require a "V" or "half cone" notch to be cut in the face of the breech plug.   The idea being that the trough in the breech plug will funnel powder into the touch hole liner. 
My kit's inletting for the lock plate and barrel would seem to support this idea ( I have not yet done any work on it.) 
The posts here seem to massively shy away from notching the breech plug, yet I have two Pedersoli flintlocks that have this feature and the kit and video to boot.
So what the $#*! is the right answer??
I still have enough room left on my Lancaster to do it either way: touch hole that clears the BP, or touch hole that requires a conical trough.
By the way, I do fully understand that there will be approximately 69,690 "right answers"....
Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2013, 02:35:48 PM »
The liner is coned on the inside. The main charge won't need to be " funnelled " by a notch in the plug.
The powder can't help but be directed to the touchhole
Because of the size of the WL liner , I have seen the B plug relieved a bit , an extension of the cone really, not a notch.   I like to have the edge of the liner's cone at the face of the breech plug. You can use the smaller WL liner instead of the larger .   It depends on where you want your touch hole in relation to the face of the plug.

Offline Keb

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2013, 04:05:09 PM »
I believe the breech of the gun dictates where everything goes on a gun & I "still" say the fence of the pan dictates the placement of the touch hole and that dictates whether you notch the breech plug or not. I don't make and sell beautiful guns for a living so I can have my preferences.

That's 2 right answers. Only 69,688 to go.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 04:09:00 PM by Keb »

Offline KentSmith

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2013, 04:13:05 PM »
I have had to notch the face of the plug on several occasions because I had the barrel slightly forward or one could say the lock slightly too far back.  I don't like to do that.  For hunting purposes it doesn't seem to cause any problems.  for target shooting where I might be putting a dozen shots or more through the gun in an afternoon I find fowling builds up even after wiping after each shot and ignition starts to lag.  Makes sense.

Even with a flared tang the barrel can be moved a thread or two back.  But it sounds like you have already found a solution.  If you make more of these, it will most likely happen again.  I never buy a precarve with the lock mortise cut and I never start a lock mortise before marking the face of the plug on the barrel and the stock and index the lock mortise based on that position (and the position of the ramrod channel).  I'd just as soon be accountable for that problem as pay for it twice.

Offline KentSmith

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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2013, 04:18:36 PM »
And I let the plug face dictate where the pan fence goes.  But that is my practice.  I believe a Getz barrel plug is 5/8" deep and some locks will require you to notch if the pan fence is at the end of the barrel.  you can measure your plug length and compare to the measure of the pan fence to bottom of the pan to see what you are up against if you line everything up with the end of the barrel.  I just skip that and line up on the plug face. 


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Re: How do I fix this?
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2013, 06:30:31 PM »
Another solution not mentioned here would be to use a gun makers lock kit so you could shape the lock plate to fit the mortise allowing you to move the works a bit forward to permit drilling the TH where you want it.