shooting without wiping between shots

[Richard Snyder]

I have seen many references on this forum and others about various lubes allowing people to shoot many times without wiping the bore between shots.  Many range rules require people to wipe between shots for safety reasons.  I have not seen much said about the safety of shooting without wiping between shots.  Can anyone clarify this?
Richard Snyder

[northmn]

As to safety, in theory wiping between shots is supposed to eliminate any embers so that you do not get a face full of flash when loading the next round.  As to lubes, those that do not wipe use a wet lube that cleans.  Grease lubes will not permit as much continuous shooting as wet lubes but hold up better for long hauls.  GG Granddad may have left his gun loaded for days before shooting.  A wet lube would evaporate which is one reason he used tallow.

DP

[Jerry V Lape]

Richard,
The National Muzzleloading Rifle Association's recommended procedure for safety reasons  is to wipe between shots.    Among the factors which  contributed to their adaption of that procedure are the possiblity of embers from previous shot, and a build up of fouling which might interfere with fully seating the ball on the powder charge.  Gaps between ball and charge are known to result in barrel failure with injuries to the shooter and those nearby. 

Individuals varying from the wiping procedure, and other safety measures, are big boys and assume whatever risk is entailed when shooting on their own.  However at the range safety is a product (and responsibility)  of the everyone there.  The  NMLRA procedures set a high yet reasonable standard for safety of the range population.   

[Daryl]

DP - spot-on-   many of us use LehighValley Lube, while others use a concoction of windshield washer antifreeze (-40stuff) and a soap or neetsfoot oil, and some  even use spit once the barrel is warm enough to allow it or the temp is at or above freezing.  For hunting, I have a quantity of Mink Oil as well as some newly brewed concoctions I need to test.

As to the problems with embers or still burning fouling causing  pre-igniton of the powder while loading, I've seen this once. The fellow, a friend was badly burned and received a piece of ramrod through his hand.  Once patched up, he was back shooting.  Mounties are like that - or used to be.  He was using a thin patch which allowed a great deal of fouling buildup with caked powder inside the bore and probably left some burning patch down inside the bore as well.  The rifle was fouled badly enough, that he was punching the ball through the patch down inside the bore, then shooting them off.  We suspect a ball passed back through the stuck patch and this material caused the FOOOOOMP as he was loading the next ball. Hard to say what happened. Sounds likely to me.

On the other hand, we use tight enough ball/patch combos that there is no buildup, loading is easy from the first shot to the 50th (or 100th) and although there is some buildup in the 'chamber' area, it is inert and not much really. I have never seen or heard of a blowout while loading in 10's of thousands of shots at our club (totally all the non-wiped rounds by the guys here)  I suspect out loading practises of the tight ball/patch combo is responsible.

We'd just rather shoot than wipe.  When cleaning, I used a 2 1/2 pond coffee can of tap water (cool) with the breech immersed. I pump water in and out of the bore, until it is clean. I then dry with dry patches and spray in WD40, wiping that up and down as well. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd pushes of the patch spray WD40 out the vent foreably. Note that the water in the can barely takes on a bit of grey colour - not black.  There is almost only one shot's fouling in the bore, plus what fouling has built up in the breech. Only enough to barely grey the water.

An expample of the way I load is in the video -  I am using - 75gr. 3F in a .45 with .445" ball and .0215" (10 oz) denim patch lubed with LHV (wet). The rifle had .010" deep rifling.  The other 10 oz. denim I have mic's at .020" and I sometimes use that instead - whatever is handy.  I also use the thin 10oz, the .020 with the .400" ball in my .40, which has a .398" bore and .0420" groove depth for .011" rifling depth per side.  The other load used in the .40, is a .395" ball and .0215" patch.  It is very easy loading with a 3/8" hickory rod, same as the loads I use in the .45.  If you add the numbers, you will see that these loads create compression of the ball in the bottom of the grooves ie; ball put into the muzzle then pulled out by the patch material will show heavy compression in the lead from the lands as well as some compression from the grooves as well. This load wipes down the bore when you load it, so only the last shot's fouling remains. It never builds up in the grooves to cause difficult loading. .45 barrel is .47" to the bottom of the grooves. My favourite load as mentioned measures .488", so there is .018 total compression in the bottom of the grooves - or .009" per side.  

The .40's combinations run, .008" compression per side with the small .395" ball and .009" per side with the .400" ball.

 When I reduce patch thickness to .015" or finer, shoot and recover the patches, I find burnt patches to strips of charred cloth. This won't do.  The thinner patches don't wipe down the bore well enough, and when they burn, they allow fouling to build up shot to shot until you can't load. As well, with the tremendous buildup of fouling you run the risk of premature detonation - my theory only (well, others too)

 I should also note the method used to measure the thickness gives different readings with the same material.  I stopped using calipers and now only use a 1" micrometer.  I get consistant readings with the mic and since I use it only, I can easily compare materials to one another.  I bought some OxYoke prelubed .018" patches that measure only .015" with my mic.  Although those ticking patches held together well, they did not deliver my requisite degree of accuracy.  They were lubed with bore butter - well, yellow stuff anyway- wintergreen odour.

 After reading Jerry's post, I must add that the rules of wiping are probably best for those who are shooting with unknowns - or persons who don't shoot tight combinations.  Afterall, there was one fellow at a range I frequented who thought shooting .30/30 cases full of sand out of his .50 CVA was great fun and gave good accuracy. One never knows the experience level of the guy beside you, or exactly what he's doing. I was told yesterday, that a bloke down in the Vancouver area blew off part or all of his hand with a black powder handgun he got for Christmas.  Not all BLACK powder is black power.  Just a theory as to the 'explosion' he had. I wonder if he got a chance to wipe between shots .

 Some Association rules are interesting. The Canadian Black Powder Association, or perhaps it was only the British Columbia Black Powder Association had a rule stating you had to blow down the barrel between shots. Some still do.

[Mike R]

I guess I have never used as wet a patch as some because I have never been able to get more than three shots brefore wiping--but I usually wipe between every shot or every other one.  I tend to load "traditionally", that is with period correct components, thus such things a tallow-lubed patches.  Dan'l Boone was described by JJ Audabon [on a squirrel hunt] as wiping between every shot.  If I wanted to shoot rapid fire I'd use a cartridge rifle.  I shoot at a relaxed pace where running a damp patch is no bother, and IS  a safety factor.  While rare, embers can remain.  I also shoot a cannon as a reenactor--we use 1/3 to 1/2 lbs of powder per shot.  Embers DO remain and thorough wet wiping of the bore between shots is REQUIRED.  Failure to do so HAS resulted in death or severe injuries to many folks.  The man who taught me cannon safety learned the hard way--he is missing most of his right hand and nearly lost his life.  I've had my hands for 64 yrs now and hope to keep them a bit longer--but you boys play the way you want to....

[Daryl]

Big difference between a cannon and a rifle.  We swab the cannons between shots too.
 As far as a rifle or smoothbore goes, with the way we all load, it hasn't been necessary in the tens of thousands of shots we've fired.  it is something that must be left to the individual.  Pointed statements like "if I wanted to shoot rapid fire, yadda, yadda, yadda" aren't necessary.  We  shoot,  load, walk to the next target, shoot,  load - all the while talking, ribbing, congratulating on good shots, etc - there is no rush - I just prefer not having to wipe the bore.  If I 'had' to wipe the bore every three shots, I'd look to the load I was using, as it is changing the bore every shot due to a buildup of fouling. If that particular load was accurate enough for me, I'll probably wipe between shots too.  Each to his own.

[Candle Snuffer]

Check out this video, there's no swabbing here, but this guy is obviously a well trained experienced handler of his Baker Rifle;

[Roger Fisher]

I was not going to chime in since there are so many better qualified to respond than I; but I can't stop myself (blame the devil I guess)

NMLRA rule 1110 regards 'swabing between shots' says it is 'strongly recommended'!

Previous rule on blowing down the barrel states 'there will be no blowing down the barrel'!!!

Now then, If the powers that be at the Nationals feel that shooting w/o 'swabing' between shots is not verboten it leaves the question is it then such a safelty item that it should be forbidden to do so   I know, I know, the NMLRA certainly wants and rightly so, to be in the better position legally if the incident does occur! So, I feel that is the reason why the 'strongly recomended' tag!  I do agree that to err on the side of being overly cautious is the better way when safety is involved (and law suits)

If a shooter feels better swabing between each shot fine.  In my case, I shoot all day without wiping the bore and when I get back to my shanty and give her the final cleaning I have a pile of 6 or 7 slightly grey cleaning patches to chuck out and her bore is squeaky clean!  This is after many shots using the ol spit patch.  The bore in my well shot shooter has seen the trips of a sloppy spit patch loaded tight for at least 60,000 shots.  Now then if I get in to a shoot where I am aware of them asking us to 'swab between shots' I will happily comply   Getting too long winded.

[elk killer]

i have never been one to shoot at the range,,but have been shooting flintlocks for 37 yrs now,,or attempting to,,,the 1st year i had a black powder rifle,,it was a thompson center beauty,,or so i thought then..i was out hunting in the snow,,hoping for a coyote or just a rabbit..
after shooting for a couple of hours and just walking around in the woods,,i found i had to litterly pound the ball down the bore,,i was using some bore butter stuff that eveyone had said was the best,,,i dont even remember the name of it now,,was some yellow stuff that was very stiff in the cold weather,,while i was standing there pounding a ball down the barrel,,along comes this fellow,,with this flintlock,,and had 2 dogs along with him,,he strolls on up and says whatch ya doin?..i says well im hunting,,he says no your not,,your hammering on your rifle,,so after talking with him for awhile he shows me some lube he had in a small horn container..turned out to be bear grease,,very thin grease,,says load and shoot with this in all weather,, and your pounding problems shall be solved,,and so it was and is,, since that day i have never used anything else,,,have shot time after time at squirrels,and never wiped between shots,,turns out the fellow was Jim Briggs,,,was the 1st and last time i ever saw him...

[doug]

     I guess that I will echo Daryl on the wiping; in 28 years of shooting muzzle loaders, I have yet to see a cook off although I have heard rumours of one somewhere in the province.   At practice shoots and on trail walks, I virtually never wipe between shots and would normally shoot about 30 shots without cleaning.  Occasionally at a place like Heffley I might shoot a match in the morning and a second in the afternoon with only a quick wipe at noon.   As you might suspect I use a moose milk type lube.  With grease lubes, I am hard pressed to shoot more than 10 shots without some cleaning.
      To clarify BC rules; BCPA now prohibits blowing down the barrel although it used to be almost universal locally. 

     A further clarification re the exploding gun incident; the victim was described as being in his 20's (it was on New Year's Eve), the gun was described as being a muzzle loaded musket or rifle of some kind and it was claimed he or his father had shot it at New Years Eve for at least several years.  There is quite some curiosity and speculation locally on what really happened but as far as I know, no accurate details have been posted.

cheers Doug

[Richard Snyder]

Thank you all for replying in so much detail to my question.  I would welcome anyone else to join in with more information.  It seems to me that few, if any, of our ancestors rifles had built in jags on their ramrods, so I don't see how they could have been in the habit of wiping routinely.  I don't know what type of jag Daniel Boone had on his rifle.  On the other hand, they lived with far more day to day dangers than most of us do, so worry about premature ignition while loading was probably quite a ways down the list.
Richard

[Dphariss]

There is no safety problem with shooting and not wiping unless one shoots a lot without wiping. I tend the wipe every 20 shots or so.

If you shoot 50 rounds and the gun leaves a lot of fouling in the breech there could be a problem and there have been instances in the past.
Wiping every shot is just something dreamed up by some range officer someplace.
The inexperienced are less likely the stick a ball when loading if the gun is wiped.

Dan

[Gene Carrell]

I  too do most of my shooting without wiping between shots in all  my roundball guns. My take is if you use a good lube on a 'thick' and sturdy patch (I use either washed denuim or washed pillow ticking) in the .018-.022" thickness and load tight, you are unlikely to have any problem all day long. A good lube will not only coat the barrel slightly, but will moisten the fouling left for the entire length. A tight load will push the fouling down to the top of the powder charge each and every shot, leaving a very clean bore ahead of the patched ball ready for firing.
Every bore seems to differ, even from the same manufacturer. Range time is a requirement and a record book will help a great deal. Record what you did and what happened  with each shot. Try several of your favorite patch and lube materials. Keep  some fired patches for examination. There will be a combination of a tight load with good lube and sturdy patching that will provide all-day shooting with a rifle"one-shot-dirty".
Incidently, my experience with Bore Butter have been poor also. I have noted a buildup of a black 'glaze' in the bore after several shots. It may be OK for deer hunting where only one or two shots are necessary, but IMHO it will not be often found suitable for match or all-day shooting.

[Mike R]

Big difference between a cannon and a rifle.  We swab the cannons between shots too.
 As far as a rifle or smoothbore goes, with the way we all load, it hasn't been necessary in the tens of thousands of shots we've fired.  it is something that must be left to the individual.  Pointed statements like "if I wanted to shoot rapid fire, yadda, yadda, yadda" aren't necessary.  We  shoot,  load, walk to the next target, shoot,  load - all the while talking, ribbing, congratulating on good shots, etc - there is no rush - I just prefer not having to wipe the bore.  If I 'had' to wipe the bore every three shots, I'd look to the load I was using, as it is changing the bore every shot due to a buildup of fouling. If that particular load was accurate enough for me, I'll probably wipe between shots too.  Each to his own.

Daryl, my "rapid fire" comment was meant to be humor--I did not realize that the "issue" was so close to anyone's heart that offense would be taken. I apologize if it offended you. I was taught many years ago by oldtime muzzleloaders and have tried to learn "newfangled" ways over time, but clearly alot of folks use methods much different from me if they can "shoot all day" without wiping. Accuracy for me has been quite acceptable--many target shooters wipe between every shot, so barrel conditions are "alike" every shot.  I doubt I burn as much powder as many of you month to month, and I don't put myself up as any kind of expert.  But I have been at this for much of 40 yrs, so I thought my perspective would be at least worth posting, even if not agreed with. Apparently youall use very wet patches & very tight loads which accomplish the "wiping" for you with every shot. Personally I like a load I can push down the bore without undue strain--yet all my loads require a short starter--they seem tight to me. Maybe I have been doing it wrong all these years....

[Mike R]

Thank you all for replying in so much detail to my question.  I would welcome anyone else to join in with more information.  It seems to me that few, if any, of our ancestors rifles had built in jags on their ramrods, so I don't see how they could have been in the habit of wiping routinely.  I don't know what type of jag Daniel Boone had on his rifle.  On the other hand, they lived with far more day to day dangers than most of us do, so worry about premature ignition while loading was probably quite a ways down the list.
Richard

I doubt D. Boone had a "jag" at all, but there are other ways of wiping. Audabon is one of the few sources of eyewitness accounts of early period loading of the longrifle.  He gives several detailed descriptions scattered in his writings--which by the way are excellent word sketches of early America written in 1810-40. He hunted with Boone in the early 1800s when Boone was an old man, likely set in his ways.  Period wiping was accomplished usually by using a tow worm wrapped either with wet tow or a piece of rag. Another method for those without a tow worm was to push a wet rag or tow clump down the bore with a string attached to it, then pull it back out.  These methods were slightly slower than our presently common method of jag & patch. 

[Mike R]

One question I have for youall who do not wipe:  I understand the idea is that a wet tight load will "scrape off" the old fouling on the way out--But, doesn't it "push down" the previous shot's fouling on loading?  You are "scraping" on the way down the bore...The wet, tight patch is ahead of the powder charge and "leads the way" out, leaving ther fouling behind it to be pushed down the next loading.  How do you avoid residue build-up in the lower breech area?  Plus your wet patch load never "sees" the lower breech where the powder resides.

[Leatherbelly]

   Mike R,
     It's only marginal at the end of the shoot...maybe 1/8 inch or more showing on the ramrod.That's my experience regarding fouling build-up. Tight wet patch,ball combination.

[Roger Fisher]

One question I have for youall who do not wipe:  I understand the idea is that a wet tight load will "scrape off" the old fouling on the way out--But, doesn't it "push down" the previous shot's fouling on loading?  You are "scraping" on the way down the bore...The wet, tight patch is ahead of the powder charge and "leads the way" out, leaving ther fouling behind it to be pushed down the next loading.  How do you avoid residue build-up in the lower breech area?  Plus your wet patch load never "sees" the lower breech where the powder resides.

Ok Mike think on the matter a tad more!!   The ol sloppy wet tight combo of patch and ball shoves what little fouling is left from the previous shot onto the powder column and on ignition gets expelled from the bore ahead of that powder column! Or at least 'with' it! Like they say it works for me (and others)  One thing I do-do is I have my jag (on the rammin rod) cut with an X or + on the concave face of said jag this is shoved bare in to the bore to the polished face of my unnotched breech plug once or more during a day of shooting then given a slight twist.  On withdrawel of my jag (on the rammin rod) the 'cup' is packed with fouling and this keeps her breech plug face clean.  I get no more than one or one and a half jag face of fouling in many many shots during the day's activities.

Now then, when I get in the mood and decide to use teflon patches the whole game changes due to the nature of said teflon.  Then I wipe each 3 or 4 shots; but thats a whole 'nuther' story.

Hope this is some help down there in gator land!

[Daryl]

Roger, about the X's or + cut jag tip for scraping the plug.  I am assuming whatever fouling is scraped loose into the brech area will go out with the next charge - good idea .

[Harnic]

I use the sopping wet patch (Hoppes #9+) method & very rarely need to wipe the bore, only if I leave the rifle sit for long enough that the fouling gets dry.  In regard to the fouling being pushed back into the breach or any build-up in there, that area of the barrel is host to the most violent part of the explosion & with that much turbulence I believe it's almost self cleaning.  I had call to pull the breach plug on a customer's rifle some years ago who got an over tight cleaning patch wedged in the barrel about 6" down from the muzzle.  I was surprised at how little fouling was in the breach, while just a few inches down the bore, the rifling was barely visible over the fouling.  Every time I've had to pull a breach plug there has been very little fouling left even in areas that regular cleaning doesn't touch.

[Daryl]

Same here, Harry.  In a .45 or .50 bore, shooting all day long without wiping, maybe 100 shots, the rod's mark climbs up about 3/16" at the most. yes, there is fouling down there, but not much.  With the soft loads most people shoot, being able to load to the rod's seating mark is an easy affair.

At Hefley Creek rondy, with most trails only being 20 or 21 shots, the rod goes to the mark every time, showing very little buildup - and that's with the .40 or .45, 65gr. 3F for the .40 and 70gr. 3F for the .45.

[Roger Fisher]

Roger, about the X's or + cut jag tip for scraping the plug.  I am assuming whatever fouling is scraped loose into the brech area will go out with the next charge - good idea .

I have been doing this for a good many years, my thought was to lift the fouling 'rock' from the plug to prevent any misfires.  It lifts the packed fouling out and the concave jag face is generally packed with said fouling.  It is not much in total quanity; but then I 'know' she is not building up any fouling.. and easier to clean at day's end.

The X is filed into and across the concave face of the jag and enables the jag to 'grip' the fouling with a minor twist to lift it from the polished breech face.  I doubt if it would work with a notched breech plug face..  I'm sure I did not think up this idea on my own.  I do recall that a shooter on the International team came back from Germany and described it to me at a more 'local' shoot so I'm using that idea ever since.

[Darkhorse]

For the record the only time I wipe between shots is when I start to get clinkers. But I something on TV a few weeks back that really got my attention. Maybe somebody else saw it too.
On the History channel was a show about the developtment of firearms in warfare starting with matchlocks. For the Civil war segment a guy was demonstrating how  a soldier could supposedly fire 15 (I don't really remember the number) aimed shots in a minute. He was really going strong when about the 8th shot the fresh charge ignited and blew out right in front of his face. To his credit the shooter never flinched or slowed down just got another wrapped cartridge out and kept right on shooting. He got all the shots fired under the minute also. Don't remember how many hit the target.
Maybe the paper that is rammed down the barrel around the Minie is what holds the ember? It sure looked like it wasn't the first time it had happened to this guy.
It's scary to think about a charge cooking off while your thumb is over the ball your fixing to start..... or over a short starter........

[cal.43]

I whipe only if shooting my Underhammer at 100m with a conical, I never whipe between the shots if using a patched roundball in the past i did that and get hangfires . Patchlube water/vegetableoil ( whatever is in the kitchen) .

[Jerry V Lape]

If you wipe with a wet patch between shots you will get misfires as the sludge tends to plug up the touchhole, especially with a tight jag/patch.  Twisting it at the bottom seemed to make the matter considerably worse.   At least that is my experience.  Now I wipe with just a barely moist patch and a jag turned down a little so there is not much scrubbing action going down yet still  enough jag to pucker up the patch so it picks up the fouling come out.  This has no significant misfire problem even if I twist the rod at the bottom.   So I think tuning the jag a little to keep it off the walls going down is a positive thing to do along with a barely moist patch.  I chucked mine up in the drill press and spun it a little against some emory paper.  Only removed maybe a hundreth and it has made a world of difference for me.