Author Topic: Photos of signed Samual Zimmerman, Westmoreland County, PA rifles  (Read 6495 times)

Offline Mark Tyler

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Does anyone have photos of signed Samual Zimmerman rifles? Per Dr. Whisker he was active in Westmoreland County, PA from 1827-1833. [Arms Makers of Western Pennsylvania]

Offline Don Stith

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Page 107 of Rosenbergers " The Longrifles of Western PA" shows a nice signed Zimmerman

Offline JTR

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In the volume 2 Patch box book, see gun # 426. I don't know if its signed, or attributed to Zimmerman.

John
John Robbins

JBW

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Immodestly, try p. 159 opf my Arms Makers of Western PA, photos of the Zimme rman large enough to see.

Offline tallbear

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This is from Arms Makers of Western PA by Jim Whisker.It is copyrighted by Jim and posted with his permission.


Offline Don Stith

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Same rifle I referenced from Rosenbergers book/ Just not as clearly shown

Offline Don Stith

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In the volume 2 Patch box book, see gun # 426. I don't know if its signed, or attributed to Zimmerman.

John
It is not signed. THis is the same rifle Listed for sale by Buck in the classifieds. Sorry to see that Chandler did not follow through with only showing signed guns with boxes as he did in his first Patchbox book.

Offline Buck

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Gentlemen,
The rifle is unsigned, frankly it doesn't bear any resemblance (in my opinion) to the rifle pictured above. I have had the rifle for a while, and have studied it extensively. I had thought the rifle a restock using recycled parts. The trigger guard resembles those which Schreyer produced and the butt plate looks as though it was bent to fit the contour of the stock. There is a period repair to the bow of the guard and a hole that was patched on the heel of the butt plate where a patch box release button was possibly located, it also appears the same patch covers the point of the butt plate where a hole was worn through. There is one other period repair above the lock where the wood cracked and was fixed with 2 nails. Mark Tyler and I discussed this rifle extensively via email and we both thought it to be an early restock executed in Bedford, and converted some time after in Bedford. The rifle in its present configuration was originally flint. It is pictured in 3 publications and is a descent rifle without restoration. It certainly lived a long working life and has managed to survive intact without anyone fiddling with it. The rifle is 56 cal. smoothbore and is 60"-61" in length. Another person who frequents the forum thought that maybe it was bored out around the time of the Civil War to be compatible with military issued ammo. I am not certain of any of this but it is a possibility. Unfortunately the rifle has been given a title without any factual proof to justify the conclusion. I don't see it, but if someone else does I am interested in hearing their opinion. I think the attribution to Bedford is as sensible and honest as it can be. Again, Dr. whiskers I invite you to explain why you attributed it to Zimmerman.
Thanks
Buck


« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 02:35:20 AM by Buck »

JBW

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I usually stay away from these arguments BUT -- if the gun I showed was unsigned where did the signature plate I showed come from? It bothers me not that Stith thinks my photos are unclear as I long ago sold out of that book -- AND Some foundation paid $25K for the miniature photos in Rosenberger's & Kaufmann's book whereas I did it all with my Bronica ETRS, including darkroom. Books of that era seldom had color b/c of costs. If Stith feels my books are poor he should lose no $$$$ in selling them -- assuming he has any. Last, it again bothers me not one iota if whoever thinks the guns are dissimilar. Each can look & judge. I do note nothing in the ad suggests to me the hypothesis that it's a composite gun. I gather that at least some of the present-day books were heavily subidized by one or another outside sources.

Offline JTR

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I hadn't seen the rifle for sale, so didn't know they were one in the same.
John
John Robbins

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: Photos of signed Samual Zimmerman, Westmoreland County, PA rifles
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 06:04:50 AM »
I have personally handled and disassembled the Zimmerman photoed by Whisker. It is indeed signed as stated and shown. I have additional personal photos. It also has many problems that challenge it from the perspective of "all original."... perfaps a restock or embellished original stock.
Hurricane

Offline JTR

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Re: Photos of signed Samual Zimmerman, Westmoreland County, PA rifles
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 06:26:44 AM »
I don't think the signed rifle that tallbear shows from Whiskers book is being disputed as signed or not.
I think the one I mentioned, shown the volume 2 of the patchbox book as a Zimmerman, was said to be unsigned.
I think....

John
John Robbins

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Photos of signed Samual Zimmerman, Westmoreland County, PA rifles
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 02:11:04 PM »
John
 You are right.  The one in the patchbox book is the one I believe to be unsigned.

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Photos of signed Samual Zimmerman, Westmoreland County, PA rifles
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 02:20:37 PM »
I usually stay away from these arguments BUT -- if the gun I showed was unsigned where did the signature plate I showed come from? It bothers me not that Stith thinks my photos are unclear as I long ago sold out of that book -- AND Some foundation paid $25K for the miniature photos in Rosenberger's & Kaufmann's book whereas I did it all with my Bronica ETRS, including darkroom. Books of that era seldom had color b/c of costs. If Stith feels my books are poor he should lose no $$$$ in selling them -- assuming he has any. Last, it again bothers me not one iota if whoever thinks the guns are dissimilar. Each can look & judge. I do note nothing in the ad suggests to me the hypothesis that it's a composite gun. I gather that at least some of the present-day books were heavily subidized by one or another outside sources.
I know you do not do all of your photography.  There are pictures in some of your books that were taken by Rosenbergers photographer and others that were taken by Shumway. They are of my guns.

Offline jdm

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Re: Photos of signed Samual Zimmerman, Westmoreland County, PA rifles
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 11:57:21 PM »
The Zimmerman rifle pictured in "Kentucky Rifle Patchboxes " by Chandler & Whisker is not signed. So we are to assume the rifle is being attributed to Samuel Zimmerman. Is this correct?
JIM

Offline Buck

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Re: Photos of signed Samual Zimmerman, Westmoreland County, PA rifles
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 02:37:25 AM »
That is the rifle Jim. I am disagreeing with the Zimmerman attribution until I get an explanation as to why that conclusion was made, until then I am sticking with unsigned Bedford. The rifle that I have is not signed. It is pictured in Behold the Longrifle (pg92) The 2nd Patchbox book and the Western PA Book. This rifle I have is not similar to the one pictured in this thread.

Fred,
The rifle in the classifieds is a different rifle.

Don,
Thanks for trying to clear it up. Hope you are well.
Buck