Author Topic: Pouch styles  (Read 19730 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Pouch styles
« on: July 09, 2008, 02:33:00 PM »
We talk about regional styles when discussing rifles; is the same true of pouches?  For instance, do makers planning a pouch think this will be a Rev war Lancaster co pouch?  Is it more time period than location?  Maybe more usage than time or location?

As you can see I'm kind of in the dark when it comes to pouch styles, but happy to be educated.

Regards,
Pletch



Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 05:17:39 PM »
Prior to 1810-20 or so there are so few extent pouches that no regional styles can be distinguished, and very few generalities. Post-1820s, there are some regional styles recognized, though since it is out of my area of interest I can't really comment on them.
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lew wetzel

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 07:10:35 PM »
larry,log onto frontierfolk.com and ask there.those fellas are all about pc.thread counters.i bet you will get a answer...

ChipK

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 06:52:25 AM »
When I attended Ken Scott's class this spring he said that most early pouches, pre 1820 or so, were generally 8x8 square or rectangle.  He did pass on that Virginia pouches had a long pointed flap.

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2008, 06:07:35 PM »
Larry,

Choosing a style for making an 18th century American hunting pouch is just conjecture because, as Elnathan has said, there are no known extant documented examples of pouches from the 18th century. Although the more a maker has studied old hunting pouches and other accoutrements the better that conjecture might be.

Maybe instead of trying to sort out regional geographic styles we should be looking first at ethnicities of areas and what the resident ethnic group of any area might have made and used. This is related to simple geographic areas, but might produce a better starting place for discerning hunting pouch styles. Might we see different styles used by German heritage populations as compared to styles used by English heritage populations?

We have been able to figure out some geographic styles of early powder horns, but then there are known documentable examples of 18th century horns.

Randy Hedden

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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 04:11:47 AM »
THanks all for your help.  I ordered a couple of books on pouches - Tim Alberts and Madison Grants. 

  - So much to learn and so little time -

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline rick landes

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2008, 06:27:07 PM »
Randy

Thanks for the hotlink posting. I really enjoyed seeing some of your work, esp the powder horns. :)
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2008, 08:42:07 PM »
Larry,

in Dillin's book "The Kentucky Rifle", first printed in 1924, he has a page of Pennsylvania hunting pouches and horns. While he doesn't try to date any of them, they all pretty much look the same. Most are smallish "D" shaped bags with a couple that are more square or rectangular then "D" shaped. There is also one large "German" style hunting pouch. On a second page he shows what he calls southwestern hunting pouches and bags and for the most part they look pretty much like those he states are Pennsylvania hunting pouches.

I have to think that the great majority of old hunting pouches from possibly the 18th century and those from the 19th century were Plain Jane looking bags with little ornamentation. Of course the exception to this pops up every once and a while, but I don't believe there were very many early bags with cut outs in the front flap, scalloped trim, or fancy tooling of the leather. I like the well decorated and fancier bags being made by today's craftsmen, but I think we would have to put them in the fantasy classification.

If you are looking for a bag to go with your ancestor's rifle and want to be period correct, then I would suggest a plain small "D" shaped pouch.

Randy Hedden

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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2008, 11:06:54 PM »
Quote
If you are looking for a bag to go with your ancestor's rifle and want to be period correct, then I would suggest a plain small "D" shaped pouch.
Simple, utilitarian backswoods pouch made of deerskin soaked in walnut hulls and lined with a scrap of cloth from Prunella Hepplewhite's old, worn out dress.  7.5" W x 7.5" H


Dave Kanger

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Offline RonT

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2008, 12:01:27 AM »
Dave,
This bag appears to be not gusseted.  Do you see a regional predominance of single seams? 
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2008, 01:11:50 AM »
 
Dave,
This bag appears to be not gusseted.  Do you see a regional predominance of single seams? 


Ron,

Regional predominance of single seams over bags with a gusset? I think this is more than just regional. I believe that the great majority of early hunting pouches did not have a sewn in gusset irregardless of where they were made. Of course there were some with a sewn in gusset, but I think the general use of gussets came about at a much later time period. Today a lot of pouches are being made with gussets, internal dividers, pockets on the front under the flap as well as pockets sewn onto the back of the bag. A gusset on a hunting pouch serves to make for more room inside the pouch. Today's shooters carry a lot of $#@* and extraneous stuff in their pouches that just wasn't carried in a pouch way back when. Therefore, you see a lot of newly made bags with a gusset to accommodate all the extra stuff. This is also why many new pouches are made that are just huge in size. After all. if one is going to carry the kitchen sink with them, then they are going to need a much bigger pouch.

Randy Hedden

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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2008, 04:02:30 AM »
You fellows seem to be reading my mind.  With the comments you have made and the bags I've seen on various sites, it seems that the unornamented bag is what I think 'Ol Samuel would have carried.   I'm looking for what would seem to be ordinary for his time and place.  I like the look of the walnut dyed bag of Dave's.  I could see a D or rectangular style about 8x8 with little thought to decoration. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I may experiment next week but think I might wait to get serious until after the CLA show.  I hope to see hunting pouches down there.  Any of you planning to go?  I kind of expected to see Randy down there. How about you Dave?

Regards,
Pletch 
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2008, 04:41:31 AM »
Quote
This bag appears to be not gusseted.
It's not, but I "tricked" one in.  The back and flap are one piece.  The front piece is actually bigger than the back about midway down the sides and on the bottom.  I sewed down from the top on each side and met the seams in the middle. taking up the slack as I went.  Then I wet it and pounded the seams flat.  This gave me a pseudo-gusset without actually having one, instead of a flat, pancake pouch.  Also, the liner is a free-floating bag sewn only on the top edge of the bag and the flap.

>Do you see a regional predominance of single seams?

See what Randy said....I concur.  I think the fancy cowhide bags were "city" bags bought in settled areas from the local cordwainer, or or at the mercantile store.  Many of the later bags were imported English bags.  A "country" bag would have been made from whatever was available, whenever one was needed and not a whole lot of time put into its construction.

Pletch.....no CLA show for me this year.  My traveling money is still laying along I-65 somewhere.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
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Offline RonT

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2008, 05:12:08 PM »
Thanks  guys.  Same as my thoughts also about the increased capacity.  I now see the front "droop".  Neat "trick".  Concur with the "city" bag vs. "country bag" thing.  To paraphrase Sgt. Friday, "just the essentials..."
R
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2008, 06:45:20 PM »
This is a bag I got from Speedy Hogarth. Seemed to me to be English in style and perhaps appropriate for late 18th century from tidewater VA. A more settled area with established shops for bag makers etc.

Your thoughts??

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dannybb55

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2009, 04:45:27 AM »
Dave,
This bag appears to be not gusseted.  Do you see a regional predominance of single seams? 


Ron,

Regional predominance of single seams over bags with a gusset? I think this is more than just regional. I believe that the great majority of early hunting pouches did not have a sewn in gusset irregardless of where they were made. Of course there were some with a sewn in gusset, but I think the general use of gussets came about at a much later time period. Today a lot of pouches are being made with gussets, internal dividers, pockets on the front under the flap as well as pockets sewn onto the back of the bag. A gusset on a hunting pouch serves to make for more room inside the pouch. Today's shooters carry a lot of $#@* and extraneous stuff in their pouches that just wasn't carried in a pouch way back when. Therefore, you see a lot of newly made bags with a gusset to accommodate all the extra stuff. This is also why many new pouches are made that are just huge in size. After all. if one is going to carry the kitchen sink with them, then they are going to need a much bigger pouch.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com
There is an old engineering law that states " If you build a volume of any given size, some one will justify cramming it slam full of indispensible stuff. " I made my bullet bag as small as I could with just enough room to make my rifle function. I hammered a bullet flat and sewed it inside the flap to hold it down. Not much else is needed. Take a look at A J Millers paintings as all of those boys were from the east and were carrying long rifles.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2009, 05:09:51 PM »
Just curious, but what dimensions did you arrive at as "the smallest" size for a bag that you could functionally use?
TCA
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2009, 06:50:05 PM »
See the Maker's Blog for newly-posted bag by Jeff Bibb that's a copy of a preserved original. Small and simple.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2009, 09:20:27 AM »
Really enjoyed reading the responses in this thread. 

I would add that age and economics would also show up in the differences in how fancy pouch styles were. 

Needles were very expensive in the 18th century.  Many country or poorer housewives may only have had one or two needles.  Do you think they would have allowed you to use one of their precious needles to sew up a leather bag and possibly break one or both of them?  Don't think so.  Also, I'm not sure they would have allowed a husband to use thread if anything else could be used.   Most of young folks then, just like most today, don't have a lot of money to waste in their younger years.   Even if one can make most of ones furniture or other items, farm or household items took precedence.

If one has a knife and a good sized piece of leather, that's all one has to have to make a serviceable pouch.  The original laced up Virginia pouch shown earlier in this forum is a good example.  You can cut lace from a solid piece of scrap leather by cutting around the outside edge and cutting closer to the center as you cut the lace, until you have a lace long enough to suit your purpose.  It won't be "pretty" or strictly uniform lacing, but it will work.  That's how I made a whole bunch of lacing for the drawstrings on a whole lot of small bucksking pouches I made from scraps over the years.  (I admit that most of the time I used leatherworking shears to actually do the cutting, though.  Grin.)  Same thing will work on cowhide, though it will take longer to do.  The point of the knife becomes an awl for the holes for the lace.  Needles could be made from boar's hair or a number of other natural items that would have been available almost anywhere.  Heck, if you had a little more time, you would not even need the home made needles - just push the end of the lacing through the holes with the point of your knife.  Teeth made great pliers to grab the end of the lace and pull it out enough to grab it and pull it through.  Such a pouch may well have been used by the maker for ten to twenty years or even the rest of his life and possibly handed down or used for other purposes later on. 

I made my first pouch out of split cowhide with not a whole lot more tools than that and basically made the same way.  Unfortunately, I didn't like it as it was so soft it would fold up into itself. So I made another out of thicker leather a few years later.  However, the original pouch was used as a storage pouch hung from the Ozan rope in the Lodge for a few years.  Then I gave it to a new guy and he used it for a while and passed it on, himself.

Where age comes into the discussion is that as time goes by, you see more ways other people have made their pouches.  This either in the 18th century or today.  You will probably see something you like from that and incorporate into a later pouch.  When the youngun's go from being curtain climber's to yard apes, you have more time and more money to make a better pouch, or even maybe have a better one made.   Or you may decide the first pouch is good enough and "will do" for what you need. 

I've got a couple nice pouches I made in my 30's and 40's that "will do" for the rest of my life and will be handed down along with the guns they belong to.  Still, at age 56, I'd like to make at least one or two more as a sort of a way of demonstrating all I've learned over the years and just how good I can make them.  I can see no reason others didn't do that in the 18th century as well.

 

 
 

dannybb55

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2009, 02:29:59 PM »
Just curious, but what dimensions did you arrive at as "the smallest" size for a bag that you could functionally use?
TCA
Seven inches wide by eight tall. It is a D shaped bag with a scalloped divider so that the balls stay on one side and the tools on the other. The width was determined by the length of my bullet mold.

dannybb55

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2009, 02:35:14 PM »
Really enjoyed reading the responses in this thread. 

I would add that age and economics would also show up in the differences in how fancy pouch styles were. 

Needles were very expensive in the 18th century.  Many country or poorer housewives may only have had one or two needles.  Do you think they would have allowed you to use one of their precious needles to sew up a leather bag and possibly break one or both of them?  Don't think so.  Also, I'm not sure they would have allowed a husband to use thread if anything else could be used.   Most of young folks then, just like most today, don't have a lot of money to waste in their younger years.   Even if one can make most of ones furniture or other items, farm or household items took precedence.

If one has a knife and a good sized piece of leather, that's all one has to have to make a serviceable pouch.  The original laced up Virginia pouch shown earlier in this forum is a good example.  You can cut lace from a solid piece of scrap leather by cutting around the outside edge and cutting closer to the center as you cut the lace, until you have a lace long enough to suit your purpose.  It won't be "pretty" or strictly uniform lacing, but it will work.  That's how I made a whole bunch of lacing for the drawstrings on a whole lot of small bucksking pouches I made from scraps over the years.  (I admit that most of the time I used leatherworking shears to actually do the cutting, though.  Grin.)  Same thing will work on cowhide, though it will take longer to do.  The point of the knife becomes an awl for the holes for the lace.  Needles could be made from boar's hair or a number of other natural items that would have been available almost anywhere.  Heck, if you had a little more time, you would not even need the home made needles - just push the end of the lacing through the holes with the point of your knife.  Teeth made great pliers to grab the end of the lace and pull it out enough to grab it and pull it through.  Such a pouch may well have been used by the maker for ten to twenty years or even the rest of his life and possibly handed down or used for other purposes later on. 

I made my first pouch out of split cowhide with not a whole lot more tools than that and basically made the same way.  Unfortunately, I didn't like it as it was so soft it would fold up into itself. So I made another out of thicker leather a few years later.  However, the original pouch was used as a storage pouch hung from the Ozan rope in the Lodge for a few years.  Then I gave it to a new guy and he used it for a while and passed it on, himself.

Where age comes into the discussion is that as time goes by, you see more ways other people have made their pouches.  This either in the 18th century or today.  You will probably see something you like from that and incorporate into a later pouch.  When the youngun's go from being curtain climber's to yard apes, you have more time and more money to make a better pouch, or even maybe have a better one made.   Or you may decide the first pouch is good enough and "will do" for what you need. 

I've got a couple nice pouches I made in my 30's and 40's that "will do" for the rest of my life and will be handed down along with the guns they belong to.  Still, at age 56, I'd like to make at least one or two more as a sort of a way of demonstrating all I've learned over the years and just how good I can make them.  I can see no reason others didn't do that in the 18th century as well.

 

 
 
The leather for my pouch was left over from an english bellows that I was building. Now that I have restored another bellows I have some relly nice brown oil tan scraps so a new bag is in the planning stage. As far as needled, I use a sailmakers palm and needles, no need for an awl.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2009, 03:35:25 PM »
Thanks for posting the bag size you arrived at.
TCA
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2009, 09:42:19 PM »
These are pictures of the smallest pouch I currently use.  It measures 6 1/2" deep, and 7 1/2" wide.  It is of very soft elk which is soft but thick leather.  It has a gusset in the bottom, a divider inside, and a pouch sewn to the front.  The flap is doubled leather with a buckskin edge.  All hand sewn with linen thread.  This is my pistol bag - I like to have a horn/bag set for each of the guns I use frequently, so that I'm not continuously switching stuff back and forth.  I always forget something if I try that route.  I think the bag could have been smaller yet, as it is not diifficult at all to use at this size.




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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2009, 10:13:05 PM »
Gotta have a pocket for the Snickers Bars!! :D :D
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Pouch styles
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2009, 11:42:05 PM »
I carry my patches precut and lubed in a burnt out Fisherman's Friend tin, and that's what goes into the little pouch on the front.  You can see where the excess lube has leaked out of the tin and stained right through the leather.  I use lots of lube!!
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