first flintlock

[gunnut41]

Due to wifes illness I have stopped doing any type of gun work!
Dr's say it will be a long journey to get her back to health so I must get some sort of hobby to keep my mind active.
I have never made a flintlock before and thought it might be the very thing to keep me busy!
Was considering one of the track of the wolf kits but since I know next to nothing about them was wanting to ask everyone here what would be the best for a complete greene newbe?
Mostly I am looking for something to take up a lot of hours over a long period of time!!
Any help would be appreciated and any suggestions good or bad accepted.


Jim

[BIGMAN]

Hi gunnut41,

I have no expertise what-so-ever, but I just spent some time asking the same basic question for the past few months. Yesterday I ordered a Early Lancaster Pennsylvania Rifle from Jim Chamber's Flintlocks.com.

The advice I got was they were the best. And, if you are going to spend a lot of time working on a rifle you want to have the best piece of wood, best components, etc.

I guess in about 3 months I will know if they were right.

[mountainman70]

Hi Gunnut,welcome to the forum.I am in a similar situation,taking care of my wife.If it werent for my friends here,in Charleston,Wva,and here on the forum,life would be a harder row to hoe.
What is your level of woodworking/mechanical ability?I was away from building for many years,and found that getting some inexpensive decent quality guns,giving them a little tlc,reshaping stocks,refinishing,etc,brought my skills back from disuse.
What part of the world do you call home?Welcome,and god bless you both.Dave

[HIB]

Gentlemen,  I usually stay away from answering inquiries such as this but can't help putting a little insight into the same situation I faced 50 years ago.

Advice provided to me then was "slow down". And the most important part of that dialog was "study everything you can get your hands on regarding the various schools available for review". The advice came from 'Old Joe' himself when he realized I had no idea what I was interested in.

I studied and I studied and I studied some more. Eventually picked a school of original gunsmiths I thought provided me with what I thought an American Longrifle should look like. My opinion only of course.

We didn't have kits in those days so my first project gun was a ground up 'obamanation' but the @!*% thing was dead on using a Douglas 45 cal straight barrel and a Russ Hamm flintlock pattern Germanic lock. Only had book pictures to go by

After the build was complete a collector happened upon a BAR practice 'speed loading' event while my friend and I were doing our best to get 11 shots off in a 4 minute period. Four minutes wasn't the problem; accuracy was !!

Anyway, this gentleman walked up to my friend and myself and asked to see our guns. He looked at mine and and then at my friends. He took a moment to construct what he wanted to say. Eventually he said in a rather bold statement "you boys have never seen an original Kentucky rifle have you?" And of course we hadn't.

He invited us to his house to review 7 originals. It was an emotional event to say the least. Both my friend and I had missed the mark by a mile. My only saving grace was that my friend had missed it by more than me!!

What's the point? I guess today it would be called 'networking' and/or 'social development' with a collector who is willing to share a hands on experience with a new contemporary builder. But I caution you, tire kickers seldom get a second look and a season collector can identify a tire kicker within 30 seconds. It is the student that always wins the second and third interview. It is also the student who has done his or her homework on the various schools of interest that light their fire.

Beyond the various schools there is a lot to learn. How did the flintlock develop in the early years of our great country? When did the percussion lock take over in popularity? What were the draw backs of either ignition system that led to the cartridge gun? How important was the Longrifle in the Rev War? Did it play a role in the 1812 conflict? And so and so on.  It will take a number of years to get it right.

Your advantage:  There are, today, a blue zillion books on the market that can start the journey to a life long passion. Buy as many as you can afford. Read them twice and make notes. Formulate a plan. And save your money for the best components you can afford. If you need to start with a kit go ahead but eventually if you are a true student you will attempt a ground up build. The 'ground up' or 'scratch build' will open doors you never thought possible. But it will take awhile. So, slow down and read everything you can get your hands on. Funny how 50 year old advice applies to today.

Regards, HIB




 

[Lucky R A]

       Gunnut 41,     Read and re-read the information provided by HIB.  I am just completing my 250th longrifle, and I am a member of the KRA.  I always consider it a privilege to spend a few minutes talking w/ Henry about a rifle or some facet of longrifle building or collecting at our annual meeting.   
       From my experience the majority of people who show up in my shop to order a longrifle have no idea what they want other than a longrifle.  They have no concept of "schools" of building or regional characteristics or original makers.  On average I spend three hours educating a client about styles, etc., before they can hone in on something that they really like.  Ther next thing is to keep them from "cherry picking" detail from this and that school and trying to place them onto an architectural platform of another school.   You will get lots of "do your own thing, its your gun."   It is my opinion, and as Henry indicated, you owe it to the tradition and the art to study first.  Those who disreguard the basics usually end up with a gun that is described as "it shoots good." In the line of study you will also need some good books on longrifle building.  Check through the arhcives of this site and you will find lists of books and tools to guide you.  Carefully regard advice that you receive.  Advice that starts out with 'I have never built a gun or I am on my first gun" may or may not be of value, consider carefully in light of the whole project.   Again, go slow, and enjoy the journey,  your purpose is to escape at home and relieve your stresses, so you can better attend to your wife and your situation---

all the best

Ron

[gunnut41]

Thanks for the "non" help !
helped to make up my mind to stay with smokeless rifles as I have for 60+ years.

"To Ephram" !
I wish to thank you very much for the help you gave me on the "ferric Nitrate".
It has helped me to be able to finish 2 Martini Henry stocks and have them match the original wood.
Now I will try it on a scrap piece of Turtle Shell Maple I have to see if I can acentuate the turtle shell even more.
Is so will do a complete Mauser Manlicher sporter using it!
Thanks again
And Goodbye,
Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

Golly, that is some great advice HIB.

[Keb]

Due to wifes illness I have stopped doing any type of gun work!
Dr's say it will be a long journey to get her back to health so I must get some sort of hobby to keep my mind active.
I have never made a flintlock before and thought it might be the very thing to keep me busy!
Was considering one of the track of the wolf kits but since I know next to nothing about them was wanting to ask everyone here what would be the best for a complete greene newbe?
Mostly I am looking for something to take up a lot of hours over a long period of time!!
Any help would be appreciated and any suggestions good or bad accepted.


Jim

Jim, Sorry you didn't get the answers you were looking for. I'll throw in my completely useless comments.
Get the ToW kit. Doesn't matter which style gun you get. Also get a "How-to" build a muzzle loader book. There are some good ones out there. I think "The Art Of Building A Pennsylvania Long Rifle" will pretty much instruct you the procedure or order of assembling a gun. Whittle away to your hearts content. When you get done, go shoot it.
Yer pal, Keb

[Lucky R A]

     I believe some people wouldn't recognize good advice if it kicked them in the butt.   It is responses like this that causes knowledgeable people to not waste their time answering questions...Oh well, perhaps someone will get something out of it.

[T*O*F]

It has been my experience that when faced with a debilitating disease or loss of a loved one, people become faced with anger, despair, or depression.  These feelings manifest themselves outwardly in a belligerence which causes them to lash out at others as a way of venting their frustrations.  Sometimes it is impossible to give the answers that such a person is looking for, which is often a sympathy and understanding of their plight.

[Acer Saccharum]

That is very kindly, Dave.

On line when one asks a question, there can be so many responses. But the real thing we lack is the human face-to-face interface. Thanks, Dave, for reminding me.

[bob in the woods]

I am always amazed that we expect answers from strangers that not only answer our specific question, but are tailored to our specific emotional need as well. Used to be such advice cost $.   Seriously,
If you stick with smokeless out of spite, it will be your loss.
There are more than one response here. All of them have value.  Take what you can from them and try to be happy. My wife is not well, my son is handicapped, my daughter financially dependant, and my Dad has terminal pancreatic cancer.  None of that alters the best advice often found here.
If reading re the longrifle before putting tools to wood/metal is not your main concern at the moment,   I would heartily recommend the DVD's of contemporary longrifles from Pioneer video. You can view rifles made by some very well known artisans and get a real sense of their
work. I found those videos along with RCA 1 and 2 extremely helpful  [ Rifles of Colonial America ]
I hope things work out for you.

[Keb]

4 years ago my wife died unexpectedly at the age of 58. I was devastated. I had stopped shooting & primitive camping 13 years prior. I didn't know what to do. I contacted an old & good friend I rondyvooed with and asked him to go to a camp. We did. I got an old gun out I had started many years (TOW kit) before and finally finished it. It ain't nothing special. Many of the fellas here would turn their noses up at it. I don't care. I gave it to my daughter who remembers me starting it for my wife. It means more to her than many things even though it is nothing special.
Take what ever advice you like. It doesn't matter if you build a muzzle loading gun upside down, wrong handed, forget about black powder guns, give up modern guns or anything else. All that matters is you spend time with your wife and enjoy her company while you still have time.

[Vomitus]

Golly, that is some great advice HIB.

What Acer said.  Sure great when someone puts there arm on your shoulder and says," come here, I'll show you something". Thanks for that HIB.

[Eric Smith]

Great advice, Henry. Thanks for all the help you gave me.

[greybeard]

Gentlemen,  I usually stay away from answering inquiries such as this but can't help putting a little insight into the same situation I faced 50 years ago.

Advice provided to me then was "slow down". And the most important part of that dialog was "study everything you can get your hands on regarding the various schools available for review". The advice came from 'Old Joe' himself when he realized I had no idea what I was interested in.

I studied and I studied and I studied some more. Eventually picked a school of original gunsmiths I thought provided me with what I thought an American Longrifle should look like. My opinion only of course.

We didn't have kits in those days so my first project gun was a ground up 'obamanation' but the @!*% thing was dead on using a Douglas 45 cal straight barrel and a Russ Hamm flintlock pattern Germanic lock. Only had book pictures to go by

After the build was complete a collector happened upon a BAR practice 'speed loading' event while my friend and I were doing our best to get 11 shots off in a 4 minute period. Four minutes wasn't the problem; accuracy was !!

Anyway, this gentleman walked up to my friend and myself and asked to see our guns. He looked at mine and and then at my friends. He took a moment to construct what he wanted to say. Eventually he said in a rather bold statement "you boys have never seen an original Kentucky rifle have you?" And of course we hadn't.

He invited us to his house to review 7 originals. It was an emotional event to say the least. Both my friend and I had missed the mark by a mile. My only saving grace was that my friend had missed it by more than me!!

What's the point? I guess today it would be called 'networking' and/or 'social development' with a collector who is willing to share a hands on experience with a new contemporary builder. But I caution you, tire kickers seldom get a second look and a season collector can identify a tire kicker within 30 seconds. It is the student that always wins the second and third interview. It is also the student who has done his or her homework on the various schools of interest that light their fire.

Beyond the various schools there is a lot to learn. How did the flintlock develop in the early years of our great country? When did the percussion lock take over in popularity? What were the draw backs of either ignition system that led to the cartridge gun? How important was the Longrifle in the Rev War? Did it play a role in the 1812 conflict? And so and so on.  It will take a number of years to get it right.

Your advantage:  There are, today, a blue zillion books on the market that can start the journey to a life long passion. Buy as many as you can afford. Read them twice and make notes. Formulate a plan. And save your money for the best components you can afford. If you need to start with a kit go ahead but eventually if you are a true student you will attempt a ground up build. The 'ground up' or 'scratch build' will open doors you never thought possible. But it will take awhile. So, slow down and read everything you can get your hands on. Funny how 50 year old advice applies to today.

Regards, HIB

HIB is a long time member of this forum and does not often post, but when he does we could all gain something from following, and gleaning info from this gentleman.
    Thank you Henry, for helping me with my Berks County build.
      Bob Reader  (greybeard)






 

[Bob Roller]

Books on whatever subject or endeavour you are interested in are a treasure.
Keep in mind,a person who WON'T read is no better off than one who CAN'T.

Bob Roller

[Don Getz]

This is an answer to Ian's statement.    I believe in using good parts to build your first gun, except for buying the best curly
maple stock.  A real good curly maple blank can be expensive, but, remember this, it is your first gun and you will be learning
and probably doing some things wrong.  Think about this.  I first met Jim Kibler a few years ago and was looking and admiring
his guns, fabulous carving, when it suddenly dawned on me that they were built using plain maple, no curl in them.  This would be my first thing to cut cost, and, why waste a good curly piece of wood to learn on.   A Chambers kit would be a good
way to get started, and you will have to learn a lot about gun building in order to do it, but, you can end up with a real nice
gun..........Don

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Well Henry, that is a classic!! It needs to be saved and included in the AR Reference section on Gunbuilding or as an intro to the tutorial section..maybe both!! 

You have been a gracious teacher Henry!  Eventually I will get this Bonewitz done.......

[BIGMAN]

... I believe in using good parts to build your first gun, except for buying the best curly maple stock.  A real good curly maple blank can be expensive, but, remember this, it is your first gun and you will be learning and probably doing some things wrong... This would be my first thing to cut cost, and, why waste a good curly piece of wood to learn on.   

... you will have to learn a lot about gun building in order to do it, but, you can end up with a real nice
gun..........Don

Thanks for the advice. I am hoping that If I take my time, study, plan and practice I can get it right the first time. My dad who was an old school carpenter trained me that way when I was young. Wish he was still around to get advice from. Luckily, looks like there are a lot of great mentors here on this board.