Dechard and Kutter rifles

[Dennis Glazener]

Last night I was reading "Western NC a History From 1720-1913" by John Preston Arthur (available for free download books.google.com ) and there was a statement in it regarding the locals using short Dechard or Kutter rifles. This was just a statement with no other information (I thought the PDF had a search feature and I could find it again but alas it does not work and I haven't found it yet)

Anyone ever heard of a Kutter rifle? Most people assume the Dechard meant Dickert but a good while back there was a Dickert/Deckard descendant on ALR that mentioned one of his ancestors building rifles up around Abbingdon VA if I remember correctly. He said his name/rifles were Deckard's and they were a part of the same Deckard/Dickert family as Jacob Dickert.

Just thought I would bring this up again and see if any of the newer ALR members can shed any light on Dechard rifles and/or the Kutter rifles mentioned in this old book.
Dennis
 

[Dennis Glazener]

I finally found (again), the mention of Dechard and Kutter rifles in the above book, it is on page 96 of the book (page 103 of the PDF) This is the beginning of Chapter V "Revolutionary Days" and it gives a cross reference (#1) which is probably no help, "NC Booklet Vol 1, No 7 page 3. Which probably is some historical series published in the early 1900's which probably contains verbal comments handed down over time. Even though they can't be relied on, for historical proof, my experience tells me that these "verbal rumors" often have a basis in fact.

A little further on (page 110) there are a couple more references to Dechard rifles being at King's Mountain, the cross reference here is Lyman Draper's book on Kings Mountain. Again probably verbal accounts years after the fact. Again possible basis in fact. Just curious to me what were these "Dechard", "short" Dechard and "Kutter" rifles mentioned in this book on Western NC.
Dennis

[spgordon]

Even earlier than Lyman Draper's book (1881), the "Deckhard" rifles at the battle of King's Mountain were identified as Jacob Dickert's rifles: a footnote in an article on King's Mountain in the Historical Magazine (March 1869) indicates that the author, J. Watts de DePeyster, got this information from people in Lancaster. -- Scott

[Dennis Glazener]

Even earlier than Lyman Draper's book (1881), the "Deckhard" rifles at the battle of King's Mountain were identified as Jacob Dickert's rifles: a footnote in an article on King's Mountain in the Historical Magazine (March 1869) indicates that the author, J. Watts de DePeyster, got this information from people in Lancaster. -- Scott

Not for argument, only for discussion sake, wouldn't it be natural for "people in Lancaster" to attribute these rifles to Jacob Dickert?
Dennis

[louieparker]

Is anyone aware of an original Dickert rifle that could be called " short "  ?    Louie

[spgordon]

Not for argument, only for discussion sake, wouldn't it be natural for "people in Lancaster" to attribute these rifles to Jacob Dickert?

Definitely possible.

It seems pretty clear that by 1860 or so--and into the 20th century--"Deckhard rlfle" was synonymous with longrifle. A writer in 1915, imagining Daniel Boone in 1760—perhaps before Dickert had ever produced a longrifle, certainly before he ever signed one—pictured Boone “carrying a long Deckhard rifle, hunting knife, and tomahawk.” So Dickert had become a "brand" by 1915 or, for that matter, by 1869. Or if it's not Dickert, some other maker with a very similar name (but who?).

Some of the major government procurements (I've recently read this somewhere but cannot recall where), perhaps the 1807-1809 one, required makers to sign the components that they supplied. It seems likely that there were a lot of Dickert-signed barrels around after 1810 or so. Benjamin Dickert Gill (Dickert's grandson) signed his barrels, too: in 1824 a trader at Kaskaskia bought "2 Common Rifles Dickert & Gill @ 11.00" and "1 best D[itt]o" by the same maker for $12. So I think there is evidence that the Dickert name (purchasers may not have realized that Dickert Gill was not the same person as Dickert) was widely circulated. I'd speculate that this is how Dickert/Deckhard became synonymous, perhaps for a century or so (1830s-1930s), with the longrifle itself.

[Sidenote: Do we know of rifles signed "Dickert AND Gill"? These would have to date from the very short period that Dickert partnered with his son-in-law, James Gill, in a store in Lancaster: Gill married Maria Dickert in 1987, the two men opened the store in 1795, and Gill was dead by 1796. Rifles signed "Dickert Gill" are different, as those were likely produced by Dickert's grandchildren Benjamin Dickert Gill or Jacob Dickert Gill.]

Lots more on this topic but that's plenty for now!



 

[alyce-james]

Good morning Sir; Dennis I would like to draw your attention to some added information related to the Subject of "The Decherd or Deckhard " gun maker from Lancaster. Also included information concerning the "Kings Mountain" affair. The reference I'm reading is "The Kentucky Rifle", by Captain John G. Dillin second addition 1924. Page 19. On this page is included a reference to Ramsay's "Annals of Tennessee" page 228, an added footnote:. Hope this information is interesting. Have a great holiday week end. Jim. 

[jdm]

If I remember right Dickert made some military rifles. I would guess those barells would be a little shorter .  He may have used a few of those on his other rifles ?

[Dennis Glazener]

I am not up on J. Dickert dates, when did he get into producing contract/military rifles?
Dennis

[T*O*F]

From the Annals of Tennessee by J.G.M. Ramsey originally printed in 1863.
"Col. Campbell commanded four hundred men from Virginia, Col. Sevier two hundred and forty from Washington, and Col. Shelby two hundred and forty from Sullivan County in North-Carolina.  The refugee Whigs mustered under Col. McDowell.  All were well mounted, and nearly all armed with a Deckhard* rifle."
Footnote *This rifle was remarkable for the precision and distance of its shot.  It was generally three feet six inches long, weighed about seven pounds and ran aout seventy bullets to the pound of lead.  It was so called from Deckhard, the maker, in Lancaster. Pa.  One of them is now in the possession of the writer.

Later, in 1780, on leaving the rendevous at the Sycamore Shoals and taking up the march:
"Each man, each officer, set out with his trusty Deckhard rifle on his shoulder.  A shot pouch, a tomahawk, a knife, a knapsack and a blanket, completed the outfit."

[jdm]

From Sam Dyke---Lancaster State Arsenal for the war of 1812.   Between 1799-1813 the legislature for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania contracted for Arms and supplies that were later used during the war of 1812.

Jacob Dickert April 17 1801 contract date. completion date April 1802 . Number of arms 1'000.

[Don Stith]

Dickert was a a major supplier of 1792 and 1794 contract rifles.

[spgordon]

Dickert supplied rifles to the federal government in 1792 and 1794, muskets to the state of Pennsylvania in 1799/1801, and rifles to the federal government in 1807/1809. Best way to follow all these contracts--what he agreed to supply, what he actually supplied--is in George Moller's American Military Shoulder Arms, volume 2: From the 1790s to the End of the Flintlock Period.

It's also worth noting that Dickert supplied many muskets and rifles to state and continental forces during the Revolutionary War. Other than Samuel Sarjent, who ran a shop with nine workmen in Carlile, Dickert earned more money than any other gunsmith included in William Henry's accounts from 1778-1782. (Henry was procuring finished work from gunsmiths as well as paying them to repair arms at this point.)

BTW, that Annals of Tennessee was actually first published in 1853--the earliest date that I know of that "Deckhard rifles" is used almost as shorthand for longrifle. Would love to know of earlier instances!

[Dennis Glazener]

All were well mounted, and nearly all armed with a Deckhard* rifle."
Footnote *This rifle was remarkable for the precision and distance of its shot.  It was generally three feet six inches long, weighed about seven pounds and ran aout seventy bullets to the pound of lead.  It was so called from Deckhard, the maker, in Lancaster. Pa.  One of them is now in the possession of the writer.

Later, in 1780, on leaving the rendevous at the Sycamore Shoals and taking up the march:
"Each man, each officer, set out with his trusty Deckhard rifle on his shoulder.  A shot pouch, a tomahawk, a knife, a knapsack and a blanket, completed the outfit."

Dickert was a a major supplier of 1792 and 1794 contract rifles.

It's also worth noting that Dickert supplied many muskets and rifles to state and continental forces during the Revolutionary War. Other than Samuel Sarjent, who ran a shop with nine workmen in Carlile, Dickert earned more money than any other gunsmith included in William Henry's accounts from 1778-1782. (Henry was procuring finished work from gunsmiths as well as paying them to repair arms at this point.)

BTW, that Annals of Tennessee was actually first published in 1853--the earliest date that I know of that "Deckhard rifles" is used almost as shorthand for longrifle. Would love to know of earlier instances!

Sounds like Dickert was supplying his rifles in large qty during the Rev War. It looks to me like there should be some records showing how the large qty of "Dechard" rifles ended up in the VA militiamens hands. Also, the book I mentioned earlier mentions "Dechard" and "Kutter" rifles being so prevalent in western NC.  We are talking hundreds of arms not just a few. I might be all wet but it seems to me that there almost had to be another source for these "Dechard" rifles.
Dennis

[spgordon]

Unless I'm missing something, the later book (John Preston Arthur's) takes this phrase from the earlier ones (Annals of Tennessee, 1853): so we don't really know that there were that many "Dechard" rifles among the Virginia militiamen. We know only that somebody, later, called all the longrifles that the militiamen carried "Dechard" rifles. My sense is still that what this shows is that "Dechard" rifle had come to be a substitute term for "longrifle."

But if there was a VA maker with a similar name, I'd probably think otherwise...

[JTR]

It would seem to me that the name of such a prolific and well respected maker would show up on at least a few rifles today, if it was someone other than Dickert.

Back in the day, I can see how the names Dickert and Deckard could be pretty easily confused.

But, several years ago I worked on a boat with an old captain with the last name of Deckard. He knew of my interest in old rifles and told me his family had once had a Rev War era gunsmith in PA.  I mentioned Jacob Dickert to him, and said no, the family name had always been Deckard. We talked about this several times and he maintained the family name had always been Deckard, and never Dickert… 
Of course family history can be amazingly incorrect, and that old guy is long dead now.   

John

[Dennis Glazener]

Harper’s New Monthly Magazine, Volume 21, No. 125, October 1860, pg. 670:
King’s Mountain – A Ballad of the Carolinas
By W. Gilmore Simms
[The battle of King’s Mountain, fought October 7, 1780, constituted a turning point.... The battle took place in South Carolina, but only a mile and a half south of the North Carolina line. Colonel Ferguson was one of the most distinguished of the British.... The Deckard rifle was named, we believe, from a famous maker of that region; it was the weapon most in use among the mountaineers of the South during the period of the Revolution. It is, perhaps, not so generally known that, along the dividing ridges of the two Carolinas, there have been manufacturers of the rifle famous for the excellence of this weapon from a very early period. Even in the Revolution the native rifle has been known to kill across a river 250 yards wide. This range, at that period, was held to be almost miraculous.

Proves nothing but adds to the mystery.

[spgordon]

OK, this is good!

A footnote in one of Dr. Whisker's publications notes that "an advertisement of merchant Robert Barr" in the Kentucky Gazette, 1 September 1787, lists "Dechard rifle guns" among the available items.

It turns out that there's no advertisement for Robert Barr in the 1 September 1787 issue. Whisker seems to have incorporated this error from Charles Staples (History of Pioneer Lexington [1939], p. 43), who gives the same date for a Robert Barr advertisement that mentions "Dechard rifle guns."

But Barr did advertise in four other issues of the Kentucky Gazette. And in two of these advertisements he notes that he has "rifle guns" for sale. But not "Dechard" guns--"dickert rifle guns"!! (Staples probably didn't recognize the name "Dickert" and so misread the poor/faded type in whatever copy of the old newspaper that he was using.)

So the "brand" name "Dickert" was present in Kentucky as early as 1788.

From Kentucky Gazette, February 23, 1788:

            

From Kentucky Gazette, January 12, 1788:

            

Maybe it's worth noting that among the other items Barr was selling was a "Philadelphia-made" still, which suggests that this merchant had connections to Pennsylvania suppliers who must have sent him the Dickert rifles as well.

[Bill Paton]

spgordon, this is stunningly good research! Finding an error in published materiel, tracing it to a source, digging further to find the primary materiel, and adding new info is fabulous work! Still, this thread has "Dechard" from sources older than Staple's 1939 note. So it seems to me that "Dechard" is still in the running. Your research certainly is important info that "Dickert" was a marketable  term in the 18th C. Thanks for the persistent digging.

[JTR]

Excellent sleuthing!

John

[spgordon]

Thanks, Bill! I appreciate the kind words.

Are there are any other instances of "Dechard" at all? The book with which Dennis began this thread--Arthur's Western North Carolina: A History (1914)--refers on p. 96 to "a Deckard or a Kutter" rifle (not Dechard). By 1900, "Deckard" had become a standard term for a longrifle; Winston Churchill even used it. It's used like that in dozens of texts in the first decade or so of the 20th century: "the noted explorerer [was] carrying a long Deckhard rifle, hunting knife, and tomahawk."

There could be another maker named "Deckard" or "Deckhard" whose name came to be synonymous with "longrifle"--but given the closeness of Dickert to Deckard and the wide circulation of Dickert's rifles (or his grandchildren's, which also had the name "Dickert" on the barrels), I think we can be confident (though not certain!) that it was Jacob Dickert's name that got transformed into "Deckard" and came to stand in for longrifle itself at the turn of the 20th century.

(About names & spellings: in a small batch of documents [1768-69] related to the estate of Dickert's father, the family name is spelled Dickert, Digart, Digert, and Tickert.)

[Dennis Glazener]

I have made contact with a Deckard descendant who years ago did a lot of research on the Deckard/Dickert mystery. He told me he would try to dig up this information and get it to me. Can't wait to see what he has. I am not sure that any rock solid proof in either direction was found but still it may be more info than we know now.

I still am interested in the "Kutter" rifles mentioned.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

I received the vast amount of information from the Deckard descendant, WOW its huge, lots of it just information compiled about early southern battles i.e. Kings Mountain, Cowpens etc There are a few very interesting things that I am trying to do some research on. Here is one

Jacob Deckard, Sr., my gr-gr-gr-grandfather, of southwestern Virginia, whose grandson, Peter Deckard, became a gun maker, served as a private in George Rogers Clark’s Illinois Regiment of Virginia Troopers in the Northwest Territory.

here's another with no source cited

Colonel John Sevier, one of the Virginia officers at Kings Mountain and later the first governor of Tennessee, said that the Patriot’s with their “short Deckard Rifles” won the battle. 

and one more

(name withheld by me) of Union Mills, Rutherford County, North Carolina, a noted historian and author, worked in the county court house there for some years.  She said that she remembers reading in some court house records that two Deckard brothers living on either side of the dividing ridges of the two Carolinas, as stated in the Harper’s editorial, were rifle makers at the time of the Battle of Kings Mountain.  John Deckard lived on the North Carolina side, and his brother, James Deckard, lived on the South Carolina side of the divide.  Kings Mountain is on the South Carolina side of the divide, although at the time of the battle it was thought to be on the North Carolina side.

There is quite a bit more but no original sources are given.

So far, from what I have been able to put together, he believes that the "Deckard" rifles mentioned at the battle of Kings Mountain and mentioned numerous times by many different sources were short barrel rifles (six or more inches shorter barrels than most other long rifles of the time) most having rounded barrels (maybe oct/round) barrels that are un-signed, un-adourned, most having grease holes or some with leather covered holes that held balls and other items. He describes them as first being made by his Deckard ancestors that modified the long barreled PA rifles into something plainer and easier handled by the backwoods frontiersman. He believes that "Deckard" became a generic name for this type of "mountain rifle" and was produced by many other southern back country gun smith/black smiths.

I am going to check and see if i can find some of the sources of his information and see what I can find that can be relied on. This gentleman has put a lot of time into this but I can tell from his writing that he does not know a lot about longrifles but the information he has put down begs for further research.
Dennis

[spgordon]

I will be very interested in what you find out. It certainly seems plausible that there were Carolina gunmakers named Deckard--Peter, John, or James--and that they gave their names to the "Deckard" or "Deckhard" rifles.

I think I know of some of the writings, though, of the gentleman who supplied this information. On a family genealogy website (a while back, to be sure, so he may have revised his opinions), he wrote: "I have compiled an extensive biography of Jacob Dickert. He had a daughter, but there is no record that he had any sons. However, there is the possibility that the daughter's son took the Dickert name rather than that of his father. The father was in business partnership with Jacob Dickert. As a gunmaker, Jacob Dickert was a respected gunsmith who almost went bankrupt due to over contracting after the Rev. War. But all the ample published records of the time and shortly thereafter show that Deckards made the Deckard Rifle in the southwestern mountains. Also, both Daniel Boone and George Rogers Clark had rifles made by Deckards in southwestern Virginia. The resources are matters of public record."

There is serious confusion in most of these sentences, perhaps especially the claim that Dickert "almost went bankrupt" due to his Revolutionary War contracting. I'm not even sure what could have led to that notion.

Most troubling: do the "ample published records of the time" really "show that Deckards made the Deckard Rifle"? I agree that this is a possibility based on passed-down stories reported 100 years after the event. But this is rather different than claiming that proof can be found in "ample published records of the time." It seems to me that when one makes a claim such as that one should be responsible for supplying the evidence that could substantiate it.

Scott

[Dennis Glazener]

Scott,
I did not see anything regarding a bankruptcy of Dickert in the document I have. Also the only reference to Dickert has to do with the confusion between Dickert and Deckard along with some things regarding things that may have caused the confusion.

One thing I thought interesting: Why with Dickert's name being spelled out on the barrel, would the educated officers, that mentioned "Deckard" rifles, not know the difference in Dickert and Deckard.

Seems a lot of the confusion comes from Lyman Draper's footnote of his 1881 book saying "Dechard" or "Dickert" rifle manufactured largely in Lancaster PA. I doubt that Dr Draper had any idea who/what a "Dechard" or "Dickert" was and concluded that Deckard was the same person as the well known gun maker Jacob Dickert who after all did make military contract rifles. But I doubt we will ever know for sure.

Dennis