Dickert engraveing

[hortonstn]

Looking for Jacob dickert engraveing designs
Thanks paul

[JTR]

Paul,
Dickert only used a few patchbox designs, and his engraving was pretty simple and straight forward. Besides the patchbox, the only things he seemed to have engraved were the toe plates and the star he liked to use on the cheek piece.
If you have just about any Kentucky rifle book or Lancaster book you'll find examples of Dickerts work. If you don't have any of the books, let me know and I'll send you some pictures.

John

[Hungry Horse]

 Dickert is often used as a bad example of the engraving quality of the early gunsmiths. At a glance his work is nothing fancy, and acceptable. But, if you really study it, the many flaws become very clear. That is not to say his work isn't beautiful, and charming. He was a prolific smith, with a clientele that expected engraving. They got engraving, but it wasn't his best thing. Jack Brooks, in his video on beginning engraving takes a careful look at an original Dickert patchbox, and points out the many small flaws in it.

                          Hungry Horse

[Acer Saccharum]

For me the flaws are part of the charm. Perfect and flawless engraving seldom happened in 18th Cent America, and especially on the longrifle.

[Dphariss]

Moat of the engraving on "kentucky" rifles is sub par by modern standards seriously so in some cases.
Often something that is complex and beautiful at arms length or on the wall looks like it was done with a dull horse shoe nail up close.
For that matter some of the best grade English guns of the first half of the 19th c or perhaps even later, would not pass muster today with some buyers. Many of the big name engraved Colts and Winchesters of the 19th c feature STAMPING rather than cutting if one looks at the photos of the engravers "kit" surviving to today.
Engraving is something to fill in blank surfaces and make them more interesting. In our context it was not done with binocular microscopes or optivisors with good lighting. Besides if I had to engrave like one of the big names of today to do a patchbox? It would not get done.
Still we should strive to do better. I see no reason to do a poorer job than I can just because the original was perhaps lacking. I make enough mistakes as it is.

Dan

[hortonstn]

thanks for your replies
paul

[Dphariss]

Looking for Jacob dickert engraveing designs
Thanks paul

Kindigs book and Rifles of Colonial America are places to look.

Dan

[NSBrown]

There is no arguement that Dickert's engraving has an economy of lines when compared to other builders who we might consider better than he. But do not underestimate his work. I think his eye is especially good and he seems to engrave only the essential lines of his design...no waste nor non-essential work. Trace a Dickert patchbox and then try and pencil only the lines he uses, and judge how you compare.

[Jim Kibler]

Yes, much of the engraving on longrifles is pretty naive.  With that said, there are some examples that are marvelous.  You can't generalize and close yourself off.  Study appealing examples in detail.  You'll often be surprised how good it is.  Perhaps not as complex European, English or some later work, but every bit as successful.  Try to replicate this good stuff and then you'll have even more appreciation for it.

[Dennis Glazener]

Here are a couple of photos

[JTR]

And here's a picture of the other style patchbox he liked to use.

[t.caster]

FOLK ART at it's best! That's what it is.

[Acer Saccharum]

Yes, much of the engraving on longrifles is pretty niave.  With that said, there are some examples that are marvelous.  You can't generalize and close yourself off.  Study appealing examples in detail.  You'll often be suprised how good it is.  Perhaps not as complex European, English or some later work, but every bit as succesful.  Try to replicate this good stuff and then you'll have even more appreciation for it.

Agreed, Jim, and agreed, Dan.

However, I meet so many folks who say 'I can't draw' or 'I could never do that'  and the thought of touching graver to their nicely carved and fitted gun gives them the heebie-jeebies.

I never meant to imply that you do a low quality job, just that you do the best you can, work with what you've got. Because if you wait until your engraving is perfect before you engrave your rifles, you'll be dead already. After engraving a few rifles, you'll see improvement when you look back. Read all you can, look at as many originals as you can, learn all you can, talk to lots of people, and get some hands-on lessons.

[Jim Kibler]

One thing interesting about "Dickert" work is that the quality can go from great to not very good in my view.  This applies to the engraving as well.  Apprentices perhaps?  Perhaps at times production became an even greater driving force.  I would guess that at times, there was considerable production and some of these guns were of the quality level where just adequate was appropriate.

[Pete G.]

I have noticed that before I tried to engrave anything I saw the pattern as a whole. Now that I have spent a few years chasing little lines around in circles I tend to notice the lines more than the overall effect. This helps in several ways.
First, I realized that not all of the old masters were really masters in either composition or execution.
Secondly, studying the old patterns gives you some insight into where they can be improved.
Third is that even my hen scratching can he considered historically accurate.

A Kentucky just doesn't look right without some engraving on it somewhere. Even the hardware store locks of the later guns were pretty much all all engraved in some fashion or another.

[Sawatis]

However, I meet so many folks who say 'I can't draw' or 'I could never do that'  and the thought of touching graver to their nicely carved and fitted gun gives them the heebie-jeebies.

I never meant to imply that you do a low quality job, just that you do the best you can, work with what you've got. Because if you wait until your engraving is perfect before you engrave your rifles, you'll be dead already. After engraving a few rifles, you'll see improvement when you look back. Read all you can, look at as many originals as you can, learn all you can, talk to lots of people, and get some hands-on lessons.

All I can say is practice, practice, practice...hey you enjoy building these things, right?
JP

[Acer Saccharum]

That's one thing we all have in common here, we love these old rifles.

[Don Getz]

I built an Isaac Haines rifle from a kit for a friend of mine.  I took it along to Conner Prairie, back when I was still doing their
workshop thing.  I gave the gun to John Schippers, told him to demonstrate on this one.   He did some great stuff on the gun,
but way too good for a kentucky.   I used to tell him "you are the best unknown engraver in the country".  Great guy, glad to
see his book completed........Don

[Acer Saccharum]

John's book is chock full of good engraving tips and tricks. I like it especially because it's mostly hammer/chisel, which takes minimal investment in equipment.