barrel debate

[volatpluvia]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/volatpluvia/fridg001_zpsd9745220.jpg

I run into some strange things down here in México.  This is a barrel and breech, if you can call it that, from a hand made muzzleloader.  The barrel is a simple water pipe.  The 'breach' is two thin pieces of steel seamed tubing, one inside the other.  As you can see the seams are lined up with each other.  Possibly the breech plug was soldered in place.  The 'breech' was tacked to the 'barrel' with a lick from an arc welder.  This 'firearm' survived for some years firing the holy black. 
About two weeks ago the pastor who owns it went to the hardware store to buy some more black.  They didn't have any, but sold him the white stuff saying that it would do just as well.  The white stuff is a form of primitive blasting powder, not sure what the composition is, but it is not smokeless.  The first firing burst the 'breech' destroyed the 'stock' and injure his left wrist.  He is healing nicely and has full use of his arm and hand.
Now I have fired one of these one time, and with the white stuff.  I won't be doing it again. 
But my thought is this: If this arrangement stood up to the holy black for several years or more, can we really argue that one formula of modern steel, from solid bar stock, drilled end to end, could be dangerous to shoot?  Maybe we could lay the barrel steel arguement to rest?  Just a thought.
volatpluvia

[bob in the woods]

We might have two hands, and two eyes, but that doesn't mean that one's a spare !

[Paul Griffith]

You're looking at the truth of the matter. Even a piece of miserable junk like that will stand up to black powder & fail in a heartbeat with modern powders. The results may have been the same with a drilled piece of steel.

We might have two hands, and two eyes, but that doesn't mean that one's a spare !

A brain would help also.

[Hungry Horse]

 In Prior Mt. Bill's book on building trade guns, he mentions using high pressure, seamless, gas pipe, for barrel material, with good results.
 I have a friend that inherited a number of South American "monkey guns" a relative brought back from the rain forest. They all have repairs, and some are beyond scary. One in particular, had the nipple threads either burned off, or sheared off, and secured the nipple into the snail by glueing it in with a gob of chickle ( the material used in chewing gum), and then wrapping the breech with a piece if monkey hide with a little hole in it, for just the cap retaining portion on the nipple to protrude. I would suspect that light charges were the order of the day with this arrangement.

                      Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

Just because people do stupid things either from ignorance or sloth, like using "seamless" tubing, steering column shafts (from a 1960s magazine article about a bush "gunsmith" in Africa still making FLs for use)  and gas pipe for barrels is no indication that anyone should try this or use it as a guide in any way. Schedule 40 PVC will launch light projectiles to long distances, I have read, with BP. This does not make it a good idea.

Probably a personal fault but I dislike the sound of shrapnel in the air and the smells associated with people who's body was just a little too close to some violent explosion...

Dan

[JTR]

In Prior Mt. Bill's book on building trade guns, he mentions using high pressure, seamless, gas pipe, for barrel material, with good results.
 I have a friend that inherited a number of South American "monkey guns" a relative brought back from the rain forest. They all have repairs, and some are beyond scary. One in particular, had the nipple threads either burned off, or sheared off, and secured the nipple into the snail by glueing it in with a gob of chickle ( the material used in chewing gum), and then wrapping the breech with a piece if monkey hide with a little hole in it, for just the cap retaining portion on the nipple to protrude. I would suspect that light charges were the order of the day with this arrangement.

                      Hungry Horse

And over the years probably more than a few have won the Darwin Award for following such foolishness too!  

John

[Collector]

All too true!  Darwin wasn't 'totally' wrong, you know.

That theory, of his, is still very much a work, in progress.

[Ezra]

I've seen crazier things in Mexico...

Ez

[Hungry Horse]

 Gentlemen, I agree with your theory about gas pipe, in that its crazy to use it, now that good quality manufactured barrels are available. But, since bad news travels fast, and horror stories never seem to die, I would suspect that if Old Bill's pipe bomb barrels had been prone to blowing up, we would have heard about it, and heard about it, and heard about it. I've never heard of one blowing up. Have any of you?


                     Hungry Horse

[Robby]

If there is a need, people will find a way regardless of laws and politics! The way things are going, we might start seeing more of that around here.
Robby

[Pete G.]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/volatpluvia/fridg001_zpsd9745220.jpg

  Maybe we could lay the barrel steel arguement to rest?  Just a thought.
volatpluvia

Not a chance.

[Dphariss]

Gentlemen, I agree with your theory about gas pipe, in that its crazy to use it, now that good quality manufactured barrels are available. But, since bad news travels fast, and horror stories never seem to die, I would suspect that if Old Bill's pipe bomb barrels had been prone to blowing up, we would have heard about it, and heard about it, and heard about it. I've never heard of one blowing up. Have any of you?


                     Hungry Horse

Hearing about it seldom happens. People think its their fault when a barrel fails. I mean if GAS PIPE will work then they must have screwed up.
On the old forum PMs I had a photo a poster had put in PM of a guy with no left hand who had lost it when his modern barreled fowler blew at the wedding bands. A stress riser and usually the thinnest place near the breech, especially of somewhat over done.
But I am sure HE did something wrong. My stance is that barrel should not fail in this manner even with a bore obstruction with BP as the propellant. Nor is it possible to "overload" a barrel made of proper barrel steel. I suggest people look to the wall thickness of a 500 S&W revolver cylinder. This cartridge has a max pressure of 60000 with normal factory loads running in the low 50000s. The proof is 20% and Wikipedia states the cylinders are engineered to tolerate a 50% over load. Something between 75000 to 90000.
This with fairly fast smokeless  powders. The 454 Casull runs the same CUP pressure as 30-06.
Since BP will only make about 35000 max in cartridge guns and then with 120 gr of powder and heavy bullets I don't see a problem with a ML if the barrels are properly made. I used to have a M1 Garand barrel that had been shot with dirt in the bore and it only put a "lump" in the barrel about 3" back from the muzzle. Garand barrels are pretty thin here.
So if someone has a barrel fail catastrophically with BP then need to send it to a lab that does such things and have an analysis done to see WHY it failed as it did rather than assuming it was a loading mistake.

Dan

[volatpluvia]

Thanks for replying guys.  I wanted to reiterate that it was not smokless powder, it was a white blasting powder that is a primitve formula.
Second, in no way do I ever want anyone to build out of questionable materials.  And seeing this blown up barrel is why I will never shoot a homebuilt ML in México again.  I love both of my hands, both of my eyes, etc.
I just think that a solid bar stock, steel, drilled end to end is going to stand up to the holy black, and maybe we need not be so discriminating between modern barrel steels, as we have seen argued from time to time.
However, proceed, I enjoy reading the thoughts about modern barrel steels, and each writer's opinion of them.  It can be very informative.  Even on those occasions when I have my own opinions.
I knew you all would enjoy seeing this pic of a burst barrel.
volatpluvia

[Stophel]

That Mexican gun barrel tubing must have been made of 12L14.  'Cause we all know that stuff is a bomb just waiting to go off!!!

 

[DFHicks]

Dphariss referenced a '60's article about an African bush hunter making flintlocks & using steering columns for the barrels. I also remember that article including two other points _the author indicted the charge was " a generous palmful of powder" and that the butt stock was shortened and gripped by the right hand from behind (there was a picture of this) because "these guns burst with alarming regularity".
So why do I remember this and often can't find my keys?
DF

[FL-Flintlock]

volatpluvia,
The "white" is more than likely a primer/detonator powder as opposed to a "propellant" with the difference being a burn rate of >13,000 fps as opposed to >1,400 fps.  If the seams hadn't been aligned, it's likely the mechanism of failure would have looked very different.
Mark

[Dennis Glazener]

I am locking this thread, its been beat to death. Lets get back to discussing building longrifles.
Dennis