Dickert and Gill

[spgordon]

Are any list-members aware of flintlocks signed "Dickert & Gill"--with the "&" or "and"?

The Kentucky Rifle Foundation website contains this entry:

     James Gill
     School: Lancaster (Pennsylvania/PA) James D. Gill worked with Jacob Dickert who was his father-in-law.
     He appears in tax records from 1783-1819, listed as a gunsmith. Extant flintlocks can be found signed “Dickert & Gill.”

This entry confuses James Gill (Jacob Dickert's son-in-law) with Jacob Dickert Gill (Dickert's grandson).

James Gill died in 1796, so he doesn't appear in tax records from 1783-1819. I don't think James Gill is listed as a gunsmith in any Lancaster County tax records, though I'd need to re-check this.

Dickert and James Gill certainly partnered in running a shop in downtown Lancaster. But I'm wondering whether Dickert produced rifles signed "Dickert & Gill"? Or whether, if we do accept the images below as "Dickert & Gill" rather than "Dickert Gill," this phrase refers to grandfather and grandson rather than Jacob Dickert and his son-in-law?

I have found online these four images--which could certainly be "Dickert Gill" rather than "Dickert & Gill." Or do others see them differently?











Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[Sean]

The Dickert Gill clan is pretty muddy waters.  The grandson Jacob went by Jacob Dickert Gill apparently for the sake of marketing the old man's name and signed rifles that way.  He appears to have been the most prolific gunsmith of the two grandsons.  I've seen a few guns marked BD Gill, and those had some beastly heavy barrels.  Almost all of the rifles I've seen appear to be post-1796.  There's only one rifle I've seen that might date pre-1796.  I seem to recall it being marked Dickert & Gill  but I am not sure.  It's in Jim Gordon's 3 volume set and I'll have to check it the evening.  I've seen the gun in person and it is hands down the finest Dickert-Gill gun that I am aware of. 

The grandsons, Jacob and Benjamin, have always been of interest to me.  They seem to have had a pretty good start in the trade rifle industry, getting several contracts in the 1820s.  But they appear to have been unable to adapt and grow as the industry and the contracts got bigger.  From what I've read, by the 1830's they were doing as much furniture work as gunsmithing and they largely were focused on the local trade in PA.  If you dig up any new nuggets of information on them or on business relationships between them, their grandfather and father, I will certainly be interested.

BTW, the top DG signature with the cartouche gives me a little pause.  It would be interesting to see the rest of the gun, but I'm not sure it smells right from just that photo.

Sean

[louieparker]

I would agree with Sean on the first example .. It's don't look right to me.
I am very familiar with the J Dickert () Gill   in Gordon's book.. Its the earliest one that I have seen.    LP   

[Sean]

It's marked Dickert Gill with the touchmark in the middle. It's on page 187 of volume 2.

Sean

[spgordon]

Thanks for all these responses. So, so far, we know of no "Dickert Gill" rifles that have an "&" inscribed on the barrel.

Forgive me for a couple of additional questions:

Are there instances from other makers' rifles in which a touchmark--visible between the name Dickert and the name Gill in some of the above photos--serves in effect as an "and" joining two names?

Is it possible to judge from other features whether these Dickert () Gill rifles date from:

1800-1820 (in which case they could be the result of a partnership between grandfather and grandson), or
1820-1860 (in which case they would need to be the work of Jacob Dickert Gill or Benjamin Dickert Gill)?

Thanks again.

[Sean]

I'd say its just tough to tell what you're asking, but if I were to lay a bet on that early looking Dickert-Gill, I would attribute it to the JD Gill based solely on the signature on the barrel.  I think the engraving was also a bit 'too good' for the elder Dickert who was a great carver, but an average engraver.  The gun does have some nice carving, and It's certainly possible that it could have been a product of both.

The later guns from the grandfather seem to homogenize a bit in terms of style.  He was certainly taking larger contracts and had several journeymen and apprentices working for him to turn out military contracts for 1798s and 1809s.  JDG and BDG's guns are also pretty generalized Lancaster pieces and also likely had smother working for them.  They were selling guns to a variety of sources in the 1820s and early 30s including western fur traders in the MS valley.  I've never heard of or seen a piece attributed to James Gill by himself.  So I think the issue really comes down to the fact that JDG chose to use the Dickert name on his pieces which was likely a good marketing decision, but it
muddied the waters for historians and gun collectors for sorting out the overlap between the 3 or 4 gunsmiths in this immediate family.  They all seemed to have worked together and apart, and I've never been able to figure out a way tell what's what.

Sean

[spgordon]

I don't think--but correct me if I'm wrong--that James Gill was a gunsmith at all. This is the James Gill who married Dickert's daughter in 1787 and died in 1796. He and Dickert did partner--but only (as far as we know) in a merchandise store in Dickert's home. The partnership only lasted a year or so before Gill died, though Dickert didn't dissolve it until 1800. I would assume that Gill "minded the store" while Dickert remained active in the gun business.

I don't think that the fact that Dickert had a partnership in a merchandise store with Gill suggests, though, that Dickert would sign any rifle barrels "Dickert () Gill" as if their partnership extended to any enterprises beyond the merchandise store itself.

So I'd think that any rifle that includes the name "Gill" on the barrel should be attributed to the period in which either Jacob Dickert Gill or Benjamin Dickert Gill had begun to produce rifles--since the "Gill" refers to one of these two men, not to James Gill their father...

Scott

[Sean]

Agreed.  I've heard nothing of Gill other than being a hard goods dealer.  But if I remember right, gun number two in your signature pictures was attributed to the elder Jacob and his partner when it was sold a year or two ago.  Really nice gun, mind you.  I still have pictures of it on a photobucket account somewhere.

Sean

[spgordon]

I found out a lot about James Gill today. He was a Moravian storekeeper--in Nazareth before 1787 and then, after he and Dickert's daughter married that summer in Bethlehem (its likely Dickert sent her there for schooling), in Emmaus, another Moravian community about 10 miles south of Bethlehem. He ran the store in Emmaus from 1787-1794. Only in summer 1794 did he move to Lancaster, presumably to open a store with his father-in-law. He was dead two years later. He had nothing to do with gunsmithing, so if a gun was sold with an attribution to Jacob Dickert and James Gill ... somebody, I think, got it wrong (and the gun with that Dickert/Gill signature must be dated several decades later).

Scott

[Sean]

Yes, but sometimes its all about marketing and facts rarely get in the way of marketing.

If you find any new nuggets on the grandsons, I'd be interested.  May not be your time frame of interest, but I've always been fond of 19th century trade rifles.

Sean