German lock makers

[gjclongrifle]

I have a flintlock which has its German maker's name inscribed in Gothic script.  How do I go about identifying the maker?  Is there a list of German lock makers; their location and date of working?

[Chris Treichel]

Can you post a picture?

[gjclongrifle]

Thank you for the response.  I'm not sure a picture will help much: the lock maker's name is barely visible.   Do I take it that no one has researched German locks on 18th Century American fowlers or rifles?

[Joey R]

A little too early in this thread to come to that conclusion.

[Bob Roller]

In 1980 I made a new sear and tumbler for a Jaeger lock made by Friedrich Ries in 1671.
The gun belonged to one of the German team memebers that shot at Quantico that year.
The sear broke on the last shot and the mainspring was nearl off the low end of the tumbler
so I made both parts. This lock had a thick plate and blind holes with the exception of the
tumbler shaft hole. Nice condition with good,honest use.

Bob Roller

[T*O*F]

Another conclusion is that the gun is actually German.  There is an area where 3 countries come together were many of these guns were made that includes (I think) present day Germany, Switzerland and France.  Also, guns weren't normally signed but when they were, the maker often put than info on the lock.  Thus a search for German lockmakers is probably futile and you will find that the name on the lock is actually the maker.  Where he was from was also often included and many of these locales no longer exist but can be traced historically.

[smart dog]

I have a flintlock which has its German maker's name inscribed in Gothic script.  How do I go about identifying the maker?  Is there a list of German lock makers; their location and date of working?

Hi,
Yeah, there is for gunmakers.  It is called Der Neue Stockel by Heer (1978).  As Dave said, the name may be the gunmaker not the lockmaker.

dave

[PPatch]

A brief Google search finds this info:

Title   Der Neue Stockel
Author   Eugene Heer
Publisher   Schweizerisches Waffeninstitut, 1978

Two volume set, in German. These are reference books on gunmakers from the year 1400 to 1900. There are 33,000 names listed along with 6,500 makers marks.

dave

 

[T*O*F]

Title   Der Neue Stockel
Author   Eugene Heer
Publisher   Schweizerisches Waffeninstitut, 1978

Two volume set, in German. These are reference books on gunmakers from the year 1400 to 1900. There are 33,000 names listed along with 6,500 makers marks.

Unfortunately Stockel is very rare and will cost your family jewels PLUS a thousand or more dollars.  It is also in German so most people will need a translator.

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
Yeah, I left out that part.

dave

[Chris Treichel]

Here is a useful chart... http://www.mun.ca/rels/morav/pics/tutor/mscript2.html
If you can't take a picture of it perhaps you can decipher it. 

[JTR]

I found a set for sale here; http://www.rwmilitarybooks.com/home/list73chris.html

Item # 77, fine condition for $800.00.

So is it just a lock you have, or an entire gun?

If you don't want to spring for the books to look up a single name, I'd post some good, clear, well focused pictures here of the entire lock, and I'll bet you get your answer.

John

[gjclongrifle]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my enquiry.

Here is a link to an image of the entire lock and another of an enlargement of the signature; 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3708/8825027052_14d1c91229.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2845/8825026916_7e32375e73_n.jpg

As can be fairly clearly seen the first name appears to be “Georg” but the second name is more difficult to see.  The first letter is definitely a “G”, and the second maybe an “o”, the third maybe a “w” or a tt”, thereafter is progressively more difficult.  My next task is to find a library, (e.g. The British Library, in London, UK) with a copy of the book recommended by dave, Dave, and John.  Finding the existence, or otherwise, of a “Georg G…..” might not be too daunting. 

Here is a link to images of the whole gun, a fowler; 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7412/8825162530_ef2f3e4e2d_h.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7294/8825027228_4a4c5513c1_z.jpg

As can be seen, the stock is made from nicely striped maple.  The barrel is octagonal at the breech, becoming round.  It is 45 inches long and the bore is 0.55 inches.  The furniture is brass, the butt being 1.3 inches across.  The barrel shows no sign of a maker’s name. 

Am I correct in suspecting that this is an American built fowler using either; a locally made or foreign barrel, and an imported or recycled German made lock?  If it is, then the general conformation of the stock and the shape of the side plate should give me some indication of the location of manufacture.  If I could track down the lock maker, this should give me the earliest possible date of manufacture for the whole gun. 

[oakridge]

Looks like an American made gun with a George Goulcher lock.

[JV Puleo]

There is nothing German about that gun... the lock is English. The Golcher family were lock makers in Wednesbury, Staffordshire. At least one of them emigrated to the US and may have made or assembled or finished locks here. The gun itself is American, a very late flintlock, perhaps 1820-30. It isn't German script, its a stylized "old English."

Also, if anyone needs help, I have Stockel, both the "new" version and the original in Danish. (I bought Merrill Lindsay's copies at the sale of his collection.) It isn't all its cracked up to be. The quality of the new version is spotty and depends on the sources used. The additions aren't original research but are taken from other published lists so it copies the mistakes along with the good information. I suspect the material on European makers is better. Stockel was a Danish Army officer. I think the first volume was published in 1938 and the 2nd in 1942 so, at best, his research tools were limited. Eugene Heere updated it in the 70s by adding the collected material of all the published lists to that date. In my own area of expertise, I give Heere credit for taking a very conservative approach and not including some of the wilder claims. It's the first source I've seen that has Thomas Ketland Sr's correct date of birth although the citation is simply the completely useless "archives of the country". I have found the archival source, but I wish I knew where Heere got the date.

Its 3 or 4 volumes... if that ad is asking $800 for two, its only half of the set! The original version is in 2 volumes. It is in Danish and is very rare. The ones I have are the only ones I've ever seen and that might justify such a high price if someone really wanted them.

[gjclongrifle]

Thank you everyone for stopping me start on a wild goose chase, (it is amazing how blinkered it is possible to be).

Given that this lock was made by George Golcher and that the Golcher dynasty took over from Ketland as a prolific provider of locks, why is it that after a few hours searching the Web I couldn’t find lots of examples of locks with George Golcher’s signature? Where should I look for example signatures which I can use to compare with the one on my lock?

[JV Puleo]

You could spend the next six months looking on the internet and find nothing. As one of my friends noted... "the internet is the most efficient means of disseminating bad information ever invented." I don't think it would be out of place to say that everyone who responded to your question got their information elsewhere. I'd go so far as to say that you will never find anything but the most superficial treatment on the internet and, more often than not, riddled with idiotic miss-information. Even here, most of us don't have the time or inclination to type out long, complicated answers, and these guys are as good as you will find on the net. Thats what books are for.

George Goulcher... Darlston, Staffordshire. 1853-1896 (I was wrong... it was Darlston, not Wednesbury but two towns are quite close to each other, in the same county.) As your gun is a flintlock, I'd guess its earlier than these dates. The dates are taken from directories. Before the advent of the British Post Office Directories, these were all paid advertisements and by no means did everyone choose to buy a listing... so the dates are minimal and cannot be taken as absolute. They can also go on after a person died if the heirs continued the business under the original name. This was very common.

There is little or nothing to be gained by finding another lock... these have never been faked and were relatively inexpensive items in the 19th century hardware trade. They would have been supplied by the dozen, if not the gross to  wholesale hardware and sporting goods dealers. In all likelyhood most locks were supplied with the dealer's name on them and we will never know who actually made them.

[oakridge]

George Goulcher made flint and percussion locks. I've read a description of a flint lock with his mark, but no photo. Jim Gordon shows a Hawken rifle in his book with a percussion lock that has the exact same Goerge Goulcher marking as yours.

[gjclongrifle]

Thank you "Oakridge" for the reference to Jim Gordon's book, that's very helpful: I will check it out.