Author Topic: question on fast twist jaeger barrel  (Read 5796 times)

Offline rich pierce

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question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« on: January 08, 2009, 11:05:44 PM »
I have an original short swamped barrel, 28.5" long, about .62 caliber. It has 8 lands and grooves of about equal width.  The rifling is deep, not minie-ball type, but of course needs re-cutting.  The twist is faster than one turn in the length of the barrel.  I think it is about 1 in 24".  This twist amazed me as I thought that large round balls usually used a slower twist.  What kind of load would such a barrel shoot, once I get it re-cut, re-breeched and re-bouched?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Telgan

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 11:40:04 PM »
Square or round bottom grooves? What depth? Approximate age? Are you able to tell country of origin?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 12:58:38 AM »
Rusty grooves.  There is enough pitting and enough muzzle erosion that it would be hard to say but I am leaning toward thinking the grooves are round.  It is about 1 and 1/8" at the breech, tapers gradually to about 15/16", then comes back to about a 1" muzzle.  No proof marks that I can see, which suggests what?  That it was not a military barrel, I guess, and not from a gunmaking center?

muzzle




tenons are nicely done


Breech (lousy photo)


front sight and underlug


Andover, Vermont

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 01:34:38 AM »
Rich,

Weren't a lot of the old German Jaeger barrels rifled 1 turn in the length of the barrel?

Randy Hedden

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altankhan

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2009, 05:53:09 AM »
This post stimulated me to go dust off )(iterally) an old, very swamped barrel 33 1/2 in. in length, 1 1/16 at breech, 7/8 at muzzle of about 56 cal. (give or take a bit, quite worn just inside muzzle) -- what's left of the rifling shows a noticeable twist.  Bits of an old signature on top flat near breech, tiny circular mark (somewhat corroded) on the left side of the bottom flat near breech . . .

Offline rich pierce

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2009, 05:17:21 PM »
Before I go ahead and re-fresh the rifling I'm wondering what kind of load it could take.  Would seem hard to get a large round ball spinning that fast so maybe light loads would be best?
Andover, Vermont

Daryl

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 05:24:55 PM »
Rich- I think your barrel would actually need some form of bullet as indicated by the twist. It may shoot patched balls with descent accuracy using light charges, maybe 45gr. to 60gr. Pretty rough.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 09:02:27 PM »
That would be like lobbing the balls out there.  Bet I could see them in flight!  have to be a 75 yard gun or drop would be hard to handle.  Maybe that's why they had those leaf sights on some jaegers?  Light charges, big balls?
Andover, Vermont

Daryl

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 02:09:40 AM »
As far as I've read, they did indeed use light charges and fast twists.  In the early 1800's there seemed to be a lot of confusion over what twists to use for bullets or round balls.  Many gun cases had both moulds for the same gun.  Witness the .50/95 Winchester 1876's and the .50/110 Winchester '86's with their 56" twists for light bullets.  No wonder their .50's were the laughing stock on the buffalo plains.  The .45/75 M1876's did much better.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 09:53:31 AM »
I have an original short swamped barrel, 28.5" long, about .62 caliber. It has 8 lands and grooves of about equal width.  The rifling is deep, not minie-ball type, but of course needs re-cutting.  The twist is faster than one turn in the length of the barrel.  I think it is about 1 in 24".  This twist amazed me as I thought that large round balls usually used a slower twist.  What kind of load would such a barrel shoot, once I get it re-cut, re-breeched and re-bouched?

Probably no more the 2 drams considering what comes down from the writings of the past. It might stand more. But doubt it would shoot with 90-100.
Some makers and shooters felt that only light powder charges were accurate and by cutting fast twists it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Long John

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 01:22:19 AM »
Rich,

The limiting factor with faster twist barrels is the shear modulus of the patching.  At the instant the powder is ignited and the ball begins to move the rifling is accelerating the ball rotationally while the ball's inertia is resisting that acceleration.  This puts the patch in shear.  The reason slower twists are generally better for larger bores is that the inertia of the ball increases with the cube of the diameter.  With faster twists the shear strength of the patch is rapidly exceeded with larger bores, necessitating slower twists.  Consequently, you would probably be limited to fairly light loads and very tight fits.  I would start with a 50 grain FFg load and a tight ball/patch combination.

Remember that most of the physics relating to how materials behave under dynamic forces were developed in the early 20th century.  The old-timers would try to reason things out and then build a gun based upon that understanding.  Sometimes their reasoning was sound; sometimes not. That old original barrel could have been an experiment that went wrong.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Daryl

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Re: question on fast twist jaeger barrel
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2009, 04:13:36 AM »
John- you are spot-on with that last statement about experiments or reasoning gone wrong. Such was the case in Merry Old England in the 1800's.  An example of this comes in a quote from Forsythe's little book, page 54.

 " The twist varied from a turn in 3ft. to a turn in 4 1/2 ft. of barrel, and, as may be imagined, the charge it would admit of, retaining it's accuracy as a rifle, was ridiculously disproportionate to the weight of the ball.  It cannot be denied that considerable accuracy of flight was attainable with this rifle, with small charges and great elevation, and at standing(animal) shots of course, considerable execution might be done by a perfect judge of distance, when time was allowed for the necessary calculations; but the effect of the ball, so used, was very insignificant on the large and powerful beasts of chase.  If a large charge of powder was employed to give greater power, "stripping" was the result folowed of course, by great inaccuracy of flight - reducing the rifle, in fact, to an imperfect smoothbore.  Well, to remedy this, some long-headed individual introduced the two-grooved rifle, with a belted ball.  A greater hold on the grooves as thus obtained, and a larger charge of powder could be employed, retaining the advantage of the rifle principle; but, instead of leaving the rate of spiral in the grooves as it was, in which case some small advantage might have been obtained, it was increased till it ran as high as a whole turn in 2ft. of barrel!

 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 04:14:58 AM by Daryl »