Author Topic: ignition lag problems  (Read 15103 times)

ramrod

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ignition lag problems
« on: June 12, 2013, 05:01:45 AM »
have a t c hawkin 50 cal flintlock with a green mountain 1in 72 twist bbl . problem is terrible lag time between pan flash and bbl. ignition . tried 4 f in different pan locations also varying amounts of prime . any ideas would be apperiacted. also touchole sets to rear of pan. wondering if grinding back lip of pan would help..  thanks

Offline dagner

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2013, 06:17:36 AM »
 is your breech plug scraped  clean and dry. no oil or water from cleaning patch  .next check to se when you close pan if it is covering flash hole,are you sparking properly- next is your spark and cock lined up properly sto frizen. spark goes  into pan as frizen opens..best adice take it to a real good flint shooter as he has had all of the above happen on guns over the years.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2013, 06:26:55 AM »
Is this the first flintlock you have fired?  I ask this because you might not know what to expect from a flintlock system.  How far off center of the pan is the touch hole, and what is the touch hole - straight drilled, internal coned, perhaps a white lighting liner? What is the diameter of the hole - you can see what drill size fits through it to determine that.    

Position of the powder makes some very small differences as proven in testing Larry Pletcher has filmed but most of the difference is not easily detectable by normal humans.  Some used to think the pan being full was a handicap, but Larry more or less disproved that.  

Are you using a touch hole pick to make sure the flare of the pan has clear access to the main charge?  Dry fire it in a darkened room to see if you are getting a good shower of sparks or just a few.  Might be you are not getting a strong ignition.  

I did have a gun with the touch hole forward of center in the pan and I did reshape the pan to bring the center closer to the touch hole which helped some.  When I installed a white lighting liner from Chambers the gun became quite fast.  

ramrod

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2013, 06:57:50 AM »
touchole is proper height but from center of pan is halfway to back of pan . thought about a white lightning but would still have to plug hole and redrill for proper location. also have a tenn. valley early virginia with a siler flintlock that is very quick . touchole liner in gun is thompson center allen head type.i have replaced hammer on lock to the new style and flint life is greatly improved and seems to spark well.  short of pluging and redrilling and tapping i am at a loss. thanks to all

ramrod

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 07:01:52 AM »
also don"t think i can get white lightning in 1/4- 28 thd.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 02:33:01 PM »
What is size of the touch hole?  I start mine at 1/16"/
TC
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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2013, 02:30:46 AM »
Well I don't think it would hurt to make the pan wider to the rear which would have the effect of moving the touch hole toward center.  I did that with a Dremel tool and it improved my rifle somewhat.  But it didn't get quick until i put in the white lighting liner.  If you get Chambers liner with the installation kit, it has the correct drill and tap I believe so you could go to a liner a little larger than the 1/4". 

Offline chubby

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2013, 03:29:47 AM »
You say that the liner is 1/4 by 28, so you could make a new liner from a 1/4x28 bolt cut of and installed then maybe  drill a 1/16th hole at the 4 o clock position to make it closer to the center of the pan! just a thought! best of luck!  Chubby

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2013, 04:27:30 AM »
When I feel the need for a custom touch hole liner, I buy a foot of stainless allthread from McMaster Carr, and make it the way I want it.

                                             Hungry Horse

roundball

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2013, 03:24:14 PM »

seems to spark well.

I hunted and shot a houseful of T/C Hawkens year round for 18 years.
Old style locks then upgraded to the new style locks
Old style vent liners then upgraded to the new style vent liners
Accumulated several different calibers and gauges of T/C and GM drop-in barrels.

The new style locks and vent liners made them seem like I was shooting a Marlin .30-30 with:
Goex 4F prime
Goex 3F (or 2F) main
Tom Fuller black English flints
Plus, remember that T/C and GM barrels have a modern version of Nock's Patent Breech so a vent pick / picking the vent is not needed...I never owned one.

Due to variations in the inletting locations from stock to stock, every now and then when I converted a caplock to a flintlock, the location of the vent would be forward or backward of center on the pan and never caused the first problem.
So if it was me, I'd forget about all the vent reworking if it involved redrilling the barrel as I don't believe that's your problem, and it would also void the barrel warranty with GM)..... and try 3 things if you haven't already done so:

1) Your choice of words "SEEMS to be sparking well" caught my eye.
If you're using T/C agate flints, strongly suggest you get rid of them and use Fuller Black English...T/Cs new locks with Fuller flints made showers of sparks.

2) Switch to 4F prime (or Null-B) if you are not already using one of them.

3) And if you haven't been pump flushing the Patent Breech 100% clean after every use.
(or wrapping a cleaning patch around a small diameter brush like a .32cal to slide down into the Patent Breech powder chamber and clean it every time) it could have accumulated a build up on the walls of the powder chamber and flash channel that could be keeping main charge from flowing freely all the way down and around to just inside the vent liner...you should be able to see kernels of powder in the vent hole.

Just my .02 cents on the matter...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 03:28:02 PM by roundball »

ironwolf

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2013, 04:27:04 PM »
  A 1/4" W.L. liner is larger on the O.D. than 1/4-28.

  k

billd

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2013, 05:54:40 PM »
 A 1/4" W.L. liner is larger on the O.D. than 1/4-28.

  k

Huh??  WL liners are made from 5/16" stock but a 1/4" thread is a 1/4" thread.

Bill
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 05:56:01 PM by Bill D »

Jim Thomas

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2013, 06:05:00 PM »
have a t c hawkin 50 cal flintlock with a green mountain 1in 72 twist bbl . problem is terrible lag time between pan flash and bbl. ignition . tried 4 f in different pan locations also varying amounts of prime . any ideas would be apperiacted. also touchole sets to rear of pan. wondering if grinding back lip of pan would help..  thanks

Are you using real BP to charge the barrel?    You give me the impression you are.   Didn't see that question asked and felt the need to inquire for trouble shooting purposes..   ;D    

Offline Daryl

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2013, 06:25:26 PM »
Patent breeches pretty much must be flushed, to get the built-up fouling out of the channels, just as RB says.
Good point, Jim T.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

ramrod

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 03:23:41 AM »
thanks to all for the help. just got back from the range and i am happy to report the hawkin is firing just fine now. i found a new tc liner & put that in , low & behold ignition was as it should be , nice & quick. this is a kit gun wife got me for xmas in 1977 it has a lot of sentamental value to me.  do not understand yet why i had this problem as old liner looked good yet. i am very meticulous in cleaning guess from my machinist background . but i believe everything is good and if rain lets up will give it a good workout fri. or sat..      again thanks everyone.

Dogshirt

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 03:44:44 AM »
My idea is that the biggest problem is FLINT! There is a reason they replaced this system!

roundball

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2013, 04:05:28 AM »

"...touchole liner in gun is thompson center allen head type..."


Quote

i found a new tc liner & put that in , low & behold ignition was as it should be , nice & quick.


I'm glad things are operating the way they should now...Flintlocks are fantastic when you learn all the care & feeding things to do.
And to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, you had a T/C new style hex head liner in there, and all you did was replace it with another T/C new style hex head liner...now it's working fine?
Were there any other changes made as well?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 04:06:19 AM by roundball »

William Worth

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2013, 04:27:08 PM »
I've never understood why, but every T/C flintlock I have or have seen, have the flash hole a little aft of center of the pan....  Something about their jig set up or something?

They fire just fine but I've put "White Lightning" liners in all of them.

roundball

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2013, 05:20:45 PM »
Some of the ones I used to have…I converted them from caplocks and some ended up with the vent slightly after of center, never caused any problems...TCs redesigned vent liner is outstanding in terms of reliability and ignition speed...big .070" vent hole, coned inside & out.


















Offline Dphariss

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2013, 02:50:27 AM »
My idea is that the biggest problem is FLINT! There is a reason they replaced this system!

Replaced with what? The FL has never gone out of use. Other systems are only experimental ;D
A good flintlock with a good flint gives nothing to a percussion is reliability if loaded right and properly cared for.
But a great many flintlocks are, both the lock and the overall gun are not "good". They leak priming, they fail to spark, they don't put sparks in the pan properly. The vents are often second rate etc etc.  The best, fastest, most reliable FLs were the late English "best" shotguns and rifles. These were the final evolution of the flintlock. The greatest advantage of the Percussion, a good one, is in off hand shooting and wing shooting where lock time is a major factor. Many flintlocks with large frizzens tend to jar the firearm before the ball starts to move.
Reliabilty is really not on the radar except in  extreme cases perhaps.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Dogshirt

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2013, 04:08:15 AM »
Ain't ever, after just one, going back to flint! What a MAJOR PITA! If I want to involve a rock in my hunting, I'll use a SLING. At least they fire!

Offline Daryl

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2013, 05:20:53 AM »
I used to think the same way DogShirt, until I learned to properly load and shoot good flinters.   
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Dogshirt

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2013, 07:13:47 AM »
I used to think the same way DogShirt, until I learned to properly load and shoot good flinters.   

I believe that to be an oxymoron.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2013, 03:33:28 PM »
My flintlocks are used for all my hunting. Bears, moose, deer, geese, ducks, turkey,partridge etc.  I have absolute faith in them.   The problem I see is that there is no such thing as a "cheap" flintlock if you want reliability.
A good lock is an intricate piece of machinery. If walking in to the tag alders after moose, I'd rather have my .62 flintlock than my .54 percussion.  It is that reliable.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: ignition lag problems
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2013, 03:43:06 PM »
Dogshirt, tell us about your experience with a flintlock -
 make, model, caliber, powder etc.  If a built gun, the lock and size of touch hole.
TC
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/