Author Topic: Real Manton?  (Read 11584 times)

jwiant

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Real Manton?
« on: June 12, 2013, 03:37:05 PM »
I got this jewel a while ago with hopes to fix it up.  Needless to say it is a little above my skill level.  I would like to find it a new home.  I guess my question is this an English Manton or a slick Belgium rip off?  It is missing the right lock, and about everything but the springs are broke in the left.  The muzzles are dented and the bore is dark.  Sorry for the photos; they are taken with my phone through my magnifying light.









Offline Longknife

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2013, 04:49:04 PM »
Ed Hamberg

nosrettap1958

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2013, 04:59:14 PM »
With English proof you’re fine. The English makers detested this practice by the Belgian makers that were trying to ‘Steal” their names.  The name ‘W. Richards’ comes to mind.

jwiant

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2013, 05:14:07 PM »
I thought the proof marks were well the "proof" that it was english, but I had a guy tell me they would rip those off to.  Is this gun even worth saving or is it only good for parts?  I don't know how common they are.  It seems that it was a very nice shotgun at one time. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 06:58:27 PM »
I thought the proof marks were well the "proof" that it was english, but I had a guy tell me they would rip those off to.  Is this gun even worth saving or is it only good for parts?  I don't know how common they are.  It seems that it was a very nice shotgun at one time. 

I suspect its a Manton. But from this distance its hard to tell. You need to find someone with expertise in Mantons and English guns in general.
Manton with no initial was apparently used on locks in the 1850s-60s period. Many London makers made shotguns, or had them made in Birmingham for Military officers and general sales that were not the same quality as a "best" Manton. They would be marked as "London" since the company was locate there.  So I give it the benefit of the doubt until someone with more knowledge says no.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 08:12:15 PM »


This is information that was sent to me by a dear old friend who is a serious double gun collector.  I showed him my 15 gauge double signed like yours - "Manton" and he said it was not a fake.  He dated mine circa 1860.  Incidentally, mine has good bores and I shoot it lots, though not well.  My brother, on the other hand, rarely misses with it, 'shooting flying'.



« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 08:15:08 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 10:39:07 PM »
Dave Kanger

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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2013, 12:10:58 AM »
 The lock damage could be the result of the obvious dry snapping that peened the nipples down to the wrench flats. Some fine English, and a few American rifles, and shotguns, had delicately made internal lock parts, that were intolerant of having the hammer let down without a nipple to stop it.

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Online JTR

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2013, 01:46:50 AM »
Flattened nipples and a twisted off hammer,,, I'll bet some kids had a great time playing cowboys and Indians with that old shotgun!
Lordy, you certainly couldn't do it now days, but even back when I was kid using an old busted up muzzle loader gun for play wasn't uncommon.

John
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Online Bob Roller

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2013, 01:52:01 AM »
That's for sure. I have made new3 and 4 screw bridles for these English locks over the years
as well as a few tumblers.

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2013, 02:10:30 AM »
When we were kids, someone close to me dressed up as Granny from Beverly Hillbillies for a highschool Halloween Dance, complete with double barreled muzzleloading 12 gauge.  Imagine doing that now!!
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2013, 02:55:27 AM »
Definately english, maybe a "real" Manton, hard to tell. "Real Mantons" tend to be fairly high end, the lower end guns many times made in Birmingham with Mantons name engraved and sold out of Manton's shop.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
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jwiant

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2013, 05:40:50 AM »
Thanks for all of the replies.  Its funny that kids were mentioned; that was the first thing that I thought of when I saw how mangled the nipples and flash guards were.  Since it has no real value,  I guess I'll use it to learn from.  Has anyone on here sub gauged a barrel?  My thoughts originally were to line it with seamless.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2013, 03:09:24 PM »
Thanks for all of the replies.  Its funny that kids were mentioned; that was the first thing that I thought of when I saw how mangled the nipples and flash guards were.  Since it has no real value,  I guess I'll use it to learn from.  Has anyone on here sub gauged a barrel?  My thoughts originally were to line it with seamless.

I was told by some people in my age group of playing Cowboys and Indians with a open top Tiffany Colt in 38 (think 61 navy with a factory cartridge conversion) yeah a real one silver grips etc, a still near mint Johnson (IIRC) Percussion Horse pistol and a Civil War Era Palmer breechloader that used the 44 Henry cartridge. The rest of the collection had been buried in the back yard by their grandfather in NY when the sullivan law was enacted
These had all survived very well except all the gold was worn off the exterior of the Tiffany Colt's cylinder.

When I was in my late teens I knew a man in his 80s who had a collection of Kentuckys until he left for WW-I, who told me that his first gun was a shotgun that was so heavy he had to lay down to shoot it and wore off part of the stock where it dragged on the ground as he was too small to carry it. His Kentuckys were apparently all scrapped in the scrap drives.

If you intend to line it, line it with real gun barrels. Might even make a double rifle.
Seamless tubing is not suitable material for firearms barrels. If its been beat up a lot the barrels may have cracked welds.

Dan
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jwiant

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2013, 03:25:48 PM »
Ok note taken on the seamless.  Thanks.  Would the plugs have to be removed to line? 
My boss told me a similar story of when they were kids in Philadelphia and a neighbor through out a pile of "old" guns.  He said the neighborhood boys flocked to the can and recovered thier new toys.  He remimbers trapdoors and civil war muzzleloaders. 

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2013, 04:18:29 PM »
 When you start trying to remove the breech plugs remember that English doubles are soldered together, not brazed, so its pretty easy to turn a nice set of barrels, into a pile of scrap iron.
 About eighteen years ago I went over to one of my Boy Scouts home to drop off some backpacking gear. He was sitting in the living room cracking walnut, for his mother, on a brick on the hearth of the fireplace. When I looked at what he was using to crack walnuts , I was shocked to see it was a Colt 1851 navy. Upon closer examination I found it had a steel backstrap and triggerguard, and a London address. I asked his mother where it had come from. She told me it was handed down in her family from her great grandfather. I asked where he had lived. She said Texas. I asked her if he fought for the Confederacy, and she replied he had, which pretty much confirmed this was a Colt that was run through the blockade during the civil War. The boy then went into his bedroom, and got the original bullet mold, that came with the gun. I convinced them that it should be preserved, rather than being used as a hammer. I got them some replacements for a few missing screws, and helped the boy build a display case for it, since they were unwilling to sell it. The gun had been used to crack walnuts for two generations, and had surprisingly little damage.

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jwiant

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2013, 04:56:49 PM »
I guess old guns were not collected as much as they are now.  They were just tools to many people and toys for others.  I have a belgian boxlock pistol I used as a pirate pistol when I was a kid and I didn't treat it to nice.  I still have it though.

Is it possible then to line it with out removing the plugs?

oakridge

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2013, 05:46:22 PM »
Old guns that used obsolete cartridges or ignition were just junk to many people. There were many guns in remote areas that a gun collector would never see, much less buy. I bought a rifle in 1981 from a man in Southwest Missouri that had found it years earlier at a house in the mountains. A kid was dragging it by the barrel across the rocky yard beside the house. He gave $5 for it. Amazingly, only a few slivers of wood, the hammer, and one inlay were missing. With a little restoration, that rifle is still hanging on my wall. My father knew a junk dealer that traveled the countryside in a horse-drawn wagon in the 1920's buying up old "stuff". He kept all the guns, and 50 years later, his grandson showed me a few - a factory engraved Henry, Colt dragoons (two 1st Models and one 3rd Model), several Colt percussion Armys and Navys, and some early Winchesters. After the grandson's death 10 years ago, I asked his widow about old muzzleloaders. She said she had maybe 20, or more, old "Kentucky" (her term) rifles locked in a shed behind the house, and would show them to me one day. Well, that never happened, and now she's dead and her daughter owns them. Now, it's the same thing. The daughter says she'll call me some day when she gets a chance to go through things, and let me look at the guns. I'm still waiting.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2013, 06:47:24 PM »
 A friend, and fellow junk collector, once was dismantling an old house, for the clear heart redwood it was built of. Upon removing one of the big double hung windows he found that the sash weights were a couple of old revolvers. One was a Colt baby dragoon, and the other was a double action Cooper.

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jwiant

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 02:37:34 PM »
Whats the correct way to clean the varnish off of the stock.  It seems to have nice figure in the wood but it is covered in greasy funk.  The metal has a similar coat of stuff.  The metal to wood fit is nice and I don't want to mess that up.




nosrettap1958

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 04:07:59 PM »
jwiant, true, the Belgians did everything they could to grab some of the English reputation for quality but I never heard that they would imitate the English 'proof' mark. If it was made in Belgium it would have a Belgium 'Proof' mark on it also. Something a kin to 'ELG' would be marked somewhere. But you never really know how crafty they were and to what extent and how far the Belgians would go.  Probably why the English were so PO'ed!!

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 07:34:27 PM »
I just bought an old Liege double 12 bore whose varnish was in terrible shape.  I bought a can of Circa 1850 Furniture Stripper, and it took off everything with just a wipe from a towel.  And it doesn't have that old killer odor either.  And it doesn't raise the grain.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2013, 04:26:02 AM »
Hi,
The proof marks look to be Birmingham proofs and the gun was certainly not made by the two most famous Mantons, John and Joe.  It likely is the product of some other family member who worked later. 

dave
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doug

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2013, 06:38:40 PM »
Definately english, maybe a "real" Manton, hard to tell. "Real Mantons" tend to be fairly high end, the lower end guns many times made in Birmingham with Mantons name engraved and sold out of Manton's shop.

    I think you need to separate the original John and James Manton from the later John Manton which tended to be economy guns (better than belgian) which were a continuation of the family name under John's widow and the shop foreman.  Unless I am mistaken they carried on into the cartridge era.

     Also re W Richards; keep in mind there was also a William Richards who made economy grade guns and was english.  Final note is that an unproven gun shipped to and sold in England would have been given an english proof before sale.  The english proof mark was therefore not necessarily a forgery done in Belgium

cheers Doug

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Real Manton?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2013, 08:17:40 PM »
To further complicate matters, there were a number of Mantons building guns in Canada, as well as one in India.  Depending on where the barrels were made and obtained, they could have only provisional and not final proofs; or none at all in the case of export barrels.
Dave Kanger

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