Author Topic: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'  (Read 6443 times)

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« on: June 16, 2013, 04:32:30 PM »
Having seen the very handsome plug bayonette on the contemporary site by Wick Ellerbe, I read the accompanying paragraph, and came across the words cuir bouilli as a treatment for the sheath. What is that?

Fabulous PDF article on 'cuir bouilli':  http://www.jeanturner.co.uk/static-content/tutorials/CuirBouilliTechnique.pdf

Bayonette:  http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/06/plug-bayonet-by-wick-ellerbe.html

The bayonette is a handsome piece, if there ever was one.


I have a question about plug bayonettes in general: How do they stay in the bore of the gun? Is it a tight fit, or does the bayonette stay in the body of the enemy, once stuck (not unlike the stinger of the honeybee)?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 04:35:20 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 04:57:44 PM »
Man, thats a good question...one I would really love to see the Myth-busters gang try to
answer for us...that would be an episode worth watching for sure.

Ive always suspected either way it would be pretty rough on the gun, and could easily bend the barrel right out of its bed...I reasoned that might be why bands were adopted on military arms starting in the early 1700s...( the French 1717 being one of the first by regulation?)

I know the Native Americans loved them too, especially in the north...again, not sure if they used them as big knives or actualy bayonetts...sure hope someone can post some good answers or research material for this question...
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 05:28:52 PM »
 Are either one of these processes referred to in historical documents as "Jacked leather". I have seen this term, and pondered the process. I know it was used in the making of flagons, and fire buckets, and I suspect early fire helmets. just curious.

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Offline PPatch

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2013, 06:08:41 PM »
These days the bayonet is more of a remnant than an integral part of military tactics. Back in the day of muzzleloaders the bayonet charge almost invariably came at the peak of the measured advance on the enemy and was the expected game ending finale. A company or larger group of determined men closing within 30 or 40 yards and then charging and yelling behind bayonets was calculated to unnerve the opponent and send him packing in panic.

In use a bayonet thrust is usually followed by a butt stroke intended to put your opponent on the ground to receive another thrust. One risk, then as now, in employing a bayonet was the fact of it often becoming stuck when thrust into the body of an enemy. Soldiers were (and are) taught several ways of forcefully removing it in order to continue the advance. One way is to fire your weapon in hopes of dislodging it; another is to kick the man in the chest while twisting and pulling the gun back, another is to violently lever the bayonet and gun up or down or sideways according to the axis of the blade in hopes of tearing it out (bayoneting is a nasty, messy, business). Once one manages to remove the blade one immediately assumes the classic “on guard” stance in anticipation of the next encounter. Back in the mid 60s when I took basic training bayonet training was still fairly serious business and employing a bayonet in a charge still considered a battlefield possibility. Therefore bayonet training was something a soldier needed a solid understanding of. I believe we spent the better part of a week doing nothing but bayonet drills.

From the above description of how a bayonet is actually used it can be imagined that a bayonet simply lodged in the bore of a gun will not perform anywhere near as well as one attached by a lug, there is just too much risk of  losing it during the first encounter. So, it would seem to me that the use of a bore mounted knife was more of a stop-gap measure and probably never intended as a serious alternative to regular bayonet work.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 10:02:07 PM by PPatch »
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Offline Robby

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 07:12:02 PM »
Yeah PPatch, and don't forget the pugil stick exercises, where scores could be settled ;D! Parry right and carry on!
Robby
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 07:12:56 PM by Robby »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 10:00:45 PM »
Yeah PPatch, and don't forget the pugil stick exercises, where scores could be settled ;D! Parry right and carry on!
Robby

Oh yes, a score was settled on me during the pugil stick phase - I had been appointed acting platoon sgt and the fellow who lost the job to me had a beef. He was at least a head taller than me and big all over. Right off the bat he landed one on the nose, brought tears to my eyes and blood flew. DI's just watched and let us go at it. Neither of us "lost" but I sure got a good pummeling.

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Offline LRB

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 10:20:29 PM »
Having seen the very handsome plug bayonette on the contemporary site by Wick Ellerbe, I read the accompanying paragraph, and came across the words cuir bouilli as a treatment for the sheath. What is that?

Fabulous PDF article on 'cuir bouilli':  http://www.jeanturner.co.uk/static-content/tutorials/CuirBouilliTechnique.pdf

Bayonette:  http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/06/plug-bayonet-by-wick-ellerbe.html

The bayonette is a handsome piece, if there ever was one.


I have a question about plug bayonettes in general: How do they stay in the bore of the gun? Is it a tight fit, or does the bayonette stay in the body of the enemy, once stuck (not unlike the stinger of the honeybee)?

  Hi Acer. There is a simple, and easier method to do Cuir Bouilli, and the results are much more controllable. The leather is wetted as you would do to prepare it for carving or wet forming, then is baked in the oven at 140° until dry. Done. This brings about the same changes to the leathers molecular structure as do the other methods, but with less risk of damaging the leather. Chuck Burrows could better explain what happens in the leather than I can. This simple process is sufficient for sheaths and simple items. It hardens without making the leather too brittle.

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 10:42:01 PM »
My recollection is that the plug bayonet was primarily a defence against cavalry.   Allowed musket armed infantry to operate without supporting pike men.   

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 07:42:02 PM »
Here's one of the best researched articles on cuir bouilli available - as Wick noted the basic method of wetting and then heating works and is a simple one without the chance of over heating the leather
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/hl.html
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Offline Canute Rex

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 04:29:58 AM »
I have done some work with cuir boulli, and I've researched a bit and found a reasonable way to deal with the stuff.

I start by making a plug form. That means a wooden object the shape of the thing I'm making that has the inside dimensions of the final piece. I heat it and soak paraffin wax into it so it won't soak up water and swell.

Test the leather. The first linked article said to use water at 180 C. That's called "steam." They meant 180 F, and that is a good temperature. Cut half a dozen 2" squares (exactly 2") of the leather you'll be using and poke a small hole in the middle of each. Veg tan is the right stuff. Thread all the squares on a piece of string with knots in it to keep them separated. You'll also want a brick or something else squarish and heavy.

Heat your water to 180F and get a watch with a second hand or get a digital clock with a seconds display. Dunk all the squares in the water while keeping a hold on the end of the string. After 20 seconds pull the first square above the water; after 40 seconds the second square; after 60 seconds the third, and so on. Put them under the brick to cool and dry flat and then check the results. Choose the duration that gives you the texture you want, and note the shrinkage. I found that 40 seconds or so worked well - tough but not brittle. Your leather will vary.

You can also try a lower temperature (say 140F) for a longer time and see how that works with your leather.

Now you can sew your piece, wet it, slide it over your form, and then dunk it for the right duration. It will shrink to a tight slip fit over the form, so the wax on the form is necessary.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2013, 04:38:07 PM »
All that tooled leather business- helmets and breastplates- has that been Cuir bouilli-ed? Does the leather get tooled BEFORE the hot water process, or after?

Just curious.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 04:39:06 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2013, 05:40:53 PM »
If actually used they likely would enlarge the muzzle of a thin barrel. I see them as a feel good thing, better than nothing, maybe. Of course if you stick a Lobsterback with it then you can use his Musket.

Dan
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2013, 06:27:19 PM »
Dan, I was thinking along your train of thought, about how practical they were. Maybe function as a knife was primary, hand-to-hand secondary, and bayonette as last resort. It seems like it would work once as a bayonette, and then you're clubbing merrily away with your musket/fowling piece. If you live, you retrieve your bayonette.
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Offline LRB

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2013, 12:20:58 AM »
  They could not have been real practical as a bayonet or the socket type would not have evolved as fast as it did. They are really not the last word in a fighting knife. The grip is a bit too small in diameter, but probably better used as a knife than as a  bayonet.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Terrific bayonette and 'cuir bouilli'
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2013, 07:05:09 AM »
All that tooled leather business- helmets and breastplates- has that been Cuir bouilli-ed? Does the leather get tooled BEFORE the hot water process, or after?

Just curious.

Before........afterward it's very hard to cut with a knife. I've tested cuir bouilli armour against knifes and swords and with the proper padding underneath it can stop a sword stroke - often at least, but then even steel was/is not proof positive against swords strokes
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.