Author Topic: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle  (Read 18026 times)

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 01:05:30 AM »
Neither of those names sounds right to me either. But the guys did have one of the educational displays if I'm not mistaken and it seems to me that the names of the display tables are mentioned in the next bulletins. One way or another the name will be found!

Congratulations on the new gun Joel, nice buy!

John
John Robbins

Offline rf50cal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2013, 01:23:52 AM »
 I believe it was Steve Hilberg. I talked with him also and he mentioned it was his first year as a member.
Roger Fleisher

Offline Fullstock longrifle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2013, 03:31:07 AM »
Glenn Sutt's display was on powderhorns, so it had to be Steve Hilberg.
Frank

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2013, 04:32:11 AM »
It was Steve. That's a great rifle. Congrats Joel
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 04:35:20 AM by Shreckmeister »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2013, 05:07:00 AM »
I'll have to get in touch with Steve. Hope a new KRA members book will find me. Thank you gentlemen for all of your help and compliments on the rifle. 
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2013, 12:17:27 AM »
Just to update this thread, I made contact with Steve Hilberg over the phone and through E mails thanks to Rob (Shreckmeister) for his contact information!  I enjoyed learning that Jacob Deemer was indeed an apprentice of Nicholas Hawk and pretty much one of the many undocumented gunsmiths whose work still shows up in collections infrequently. According to Mr. Hilberg, Deemer signed his rifles in the same style and script as my J.D. rifle. I enjoyed seeing pictures of his restored J.D. rifle and found it to represent Nicholas Hawk's style and adornment very well. My search continues to find anything out there related to the man of mystery given just a name....Jacob Deemer.
Joel Hall

Offline HIB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 348
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2013, 06:35:59 AM »
Joal,  This sounds like an interesting mystery. Further reseach and information re: Deemer might be accomplished by contacting the Jacobsburg Historical Society. It wasn't too long ago that the Kentucky Rifle Foundation helped finance the restoration and moving of the Nicholas Hawk gunshop to the JHS grounds. There is a wealth of knowledge there and many KRA members who will give you a hand sorting thru the Hawk papers. Deemer might pop out of the woodwork especially if he apprenticed to Hawk. It's worth a try. Best of luck, HIB

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2013, 10:23:23 PM »
Wasn't Ron Gabel involved with the restoration and/or on the board there?
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline HIB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 348
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2013, 12:31:58 AM »
Yes,  Gabel, Lubenesky, Hujsa, Flemish, Moyer and Mac.

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2013, 03:47:14 AM »
I was also informed that a Mr. Paul Gosnell had another signed JD longrifle on his table at the Baltimore gunshow earlier this year. Anyone know him? I will have to put Jacobsburg on my travel list for future PA go to's . Thank you Henry for your suggestions here.
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2013, 05:29:27 PM »
In my quest for more information regarding Jacob Deemer, I have found him listed in only one book; The KRA brown book; "Selected Articles from the KRA Bulletin Volume 1-30". Within on page 154 from a chapter of lists by Samuel E. Dyke (Reprint of KRA Research Bulletin No. 7, 1967) He is listed as Jacob Diemer from Moore Township Northampton County Dates listed from Tax lists Lehigh 1828-1835. Gleaning from this bulletin the spelling of his name used along with the listing of a Peter Diemer same county and township tax lists 1807-1835. Most likely a close relative. Interesting as well the info on Nicholas Hawk in the township of Chestnut Hill Northampton 1809-1835.  This information leads me to more questions as to where is Chestnut Hill in relation to Moore township and the big question of WHY these closely related gunsmith's work (tax records) ceases in the year 1835?  To add another aspect to my investigation is to note the other various gunsmiths from Moore Township who were also working during this same time period. All of whom would have known each other and perhaps (with seeing examples of their work) could have (and most likely did) made very similar styles of rifles. These men I will now list from Mr. Dykes research: The first is 1)  Andrew Albrecht whose listed dates are too early to fit my study, but he is always of interest to me. Dates for Andrew are 1754-1771. Next listed is 2) Michael Henry in the lone year of 1828 from the tax list of Easton. 3) George Roths 1820 from the Easton tax list, 4) John Statler 1820 from the Easton tax list.  Now, with any help here from fellow forum members who may have knowledge or access to rifles and information about any of the fore mentioned gunsmiths will greatly help in my study and ultimately generate more interest in this thread here on the ALR.     ;)    Joel
Joel Hall

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2013, 09:43:40 PM »
I don't know anything about the particular gunsmiths you're asking about, so I'm just writing to caution you about Mr. Dyke's lists. Regarding the gunsmiths I have researched, the Henry family of Northampton County, Mr. Dyke is very inaccurate about each and every one:

  • Abraham Henry is NEVER listed on any Northampton County tax list; Mr. Dyke has him appearing on a tax list in 1781, when he was only 13.
  • John Joseph Henry was born in 1786; Mr. Dyke has him appearing on tax lists from 1780-1828.
  • And he has William Henry Jr. all confused, too.

I know that Mr. Dyke did some excellent research and subsequent researchers are indebted to him; I know that listmembers knew him. But, in addition to respecting the work of earlier researchers, it is important, too, to try when possible to provide accurate information.  So I write this only to suggest that, before drawing too many conclusions from the dates or places that Mr. Dyke records, to check the actual records if possible. Most of the original lists survive on microfilm in the Northampton County Courthouse; the originals themselves are housed across the street and researchers can have access to them.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 09:45:41 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

mkeen

  • Guest
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2013, 07:21:55 PM »
so I'm just writing to caution you about Mr. Dyke's lists. Regarding the gunsmiths I have researched, the Henry family of Northampton County, Mr. Dyke is very inaccurate about each and every one:


I know that Mr. Dyke did some excellent research and subsequent researchers are indebted to him; I know that list members knew him. But, in addition to respecting the work of earlier researchers, it is important, too, to try when possible to provide accurate information.  So I write this only to suggest that, before drawing too many conclusions from the dates or places that Mr. Dyke records, to check the actual records if possible.

I would have to agree with Dr. Gordon. Unfortunately Sam Dyke also made mistakes on Lancaster County gunsmiths, his home turf. As Dr. Gordon suggests always check the original primary source, if possible, before making any conclusions.

You can check all of Sam's original work on gunsmiths at the Lancaster County Historical Society (PA) (LancasterHistory.org). His original papers on gunsmiths are archived at the society.

Martin
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 07:50:03 PM by mkeen »

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2013, 03:51:22 AM »
the lock still interests me. Merritt Roe Smith, in Harpers Ferry and the New Technology states:
One of the most serious displays of hostility toward new arrivals occurred when Nahum W. Patch, a lock filer, came to Harpers Ferry from Springfield in 1822. After a few months' employment the New Englander was temporarily designated by Stubblefield as an inspector of lock mechanisms at the Musket Factory. He must have performed his job well because the superintendent made the appointment permanent in August 1823. Soon afterward lock filers began to complain to Armistead Beckham "that the inspection was too close and their price too low to do the work" as well as Patch wanted it done. The master armorer attempted to appease these workmen by raising the piece rate on finished locks from twenty-one to twenty-five cents. At the same time he told Patch "to have the work done well, and not to receive bad work." Except for some heated verbal exchanges between Patch and several older craft-trained artisans, the uneasy truce lasted until April 20, 1825, when, amid the cheers of his co-workers, an irate filer named Henry Stipes assaulted the inspector for having rejected some of his work. Although Patch lost a tooth in the fray, his pride seemed to be hurt more than anything else. Consequently when Stubblefield summarily dismissed both men without a hearing, the discredited New Englander went to Washington to seek redress at the Ordnance Department.

page 159, I believe

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2013, 10:16:38 AM »
Thank you for this new information Mr. Kelly! An interesting story of a bad day in the life of an arms inspector. He must have had important friends or relatives there in Washington. From your finding of the first name of N.W. Patch I was able to discover this guy went on to work as an inspector  of US arms for many years. His inspection stamp was NWP and can be found on 1847 Colt Walkers, Ames swords, powder flasks, and much ordinance used in the time of the Civil War. All of this from an early beginning as a lock filer!   http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=patch&GSfn=nahum&GSmn=W&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=86815711&df=all&
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 11:16:51 AM by Majorjoel »
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2013, 12:00:29 PM »
Thank you Dr. Gordon for your insightful thoughts regarding research. I do know and understand the importance of direct sources when drawing final conclusions. My study here is basically a beginning that has started from the acquisition of an artifact which is the longrifle pictured here. From the name on the lockplate to the initials on the barrel with the architecture and style of the rifle itself all coming together for me to see a more complete picture here. A better understanding of just what it is, where it came from, who put it together and when this all took place. This is the history that grabs me and holds my interest.  In respect to Mr. Dykes list of Northampton gunmakers, I am hoping that out of the names given from Moore township, that maybe even one will come up with some information. Besides the Henry and Albrecht names which we are all familiar with, the others are as obscure as J.D. Jacob Diemer himself. But you never know what will come up. I have always felt that it is not only the answers that I have been seeking, but the right questions to ask. 
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Flintlock Marked N.W. PATCH on a J.D. Rifle
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2013, 01:53:24 AM »
Another great find and a resource that has been very helpful! The mysterious J.D. is starting to become a bit more real to me.  http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=31396108&ref=wvr
Joel Hall