Hand made triggers by a Master

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here are two sets of triggers by Bob Roller.  Until you've held a set of these in your hands, you have not seen a set of modern triggers with such crisp, smooth, and strong action.  Bob asked me to post this picture which I am proud to do for him, having used his products on a number of builds.


I trust Bob will add some further info regarding these fine triggers.

[Bob Roller]

Taylor, MANY thanks for the posting of these triggers.
The triggers on the left are single release type with a radical
offset to the right. The others are my standard two lever type
and nothing unusual with the exception of the long hollow rectangular spring that
controls the front trigger.If one side of the spring cracks,it will still make the front trigger work with
the uncracked side.I have only had this happen once and it was in the shop,not out in the field.
While making the single bar,offset trigger,a vauge memory surfaced from about 45 years ago
when I made two or three sets of these on a longer than usual bar.I THINK the idea was to move the strike of
the release bar closer to the lock plate. I can't recall anything else about them.
Thanks again,Taylor for the help and the fine comments.
 
Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You're most welcome Bob.  I'd like to see a profile picture of the single acting trigger set, please.  I think a set like that needs a home on my upcoming Mt. rifle build.

[Bear62]

 Are they offered for sale? If so how much do a set cost and where can I get some?

[Jerry V Lape]

Bob,  Until now I have just built using simple triggers pinned in the wood.  I look at your triggers, and others similar, and just don't know how to use them in my builds.  With the simple triggers they have to be tall enough to maintain contact with the sear bar.  But these look to low to do that.  Perhaps someone can show me a photo of the relationship of these triggers to the sear bar?  Do these type triggers not maintain contact and fire by just springing up to hit the sear bar?  I know this is a pretty ignorant question - hoping for some education.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Jerry, it is not a silly question, and deserves an effort at explanation.  

With a set trigger set up, the triggers have to be low enough to clear the sear bar as it is cycled through the tumbler's half and full cock notches.  If the triggers contact the sear bar during cycling, the triggers cannot engage each other properly, and you get in the least, an unsafe situation, and at worse, non function altogether.  Set triggers work under the tension of a strong mainspring to the rear (in this case) on the trigger bar, pressing down hard on the back step of the back trigger.  The back trigger is caught by a fine notch in the front trigger when the rear one is pulled toward the rear, loading the spring.  The rear trigger will be considerably clear of the sear bar.  A light touch on the front trigger will disengage the rear trigger whose forward end snaps upward under the tension of the heavy spring, striking the sear bar and thus driving it out of the full cock notch of the tumbler.  On a double acting set trigger, the lock can be fired without setting the triggers, because there is a bar on the front trigger that can contact the sear bar.  All Hawken triggers are made this way, as far as I know.  The single acting type of set trigger must be set to fire the lock since there is no bar on the front trigger - just a notch to catch the rear trigger when it is set.  On some single acting set triggers the heavy spring presses down the rearward step on the back trigger which forces the trigger's forward bar hard up against the sear when the triggers are unset.  On locks that do not have a fly or detent in the tumbler, this helps to keep the nose of the sear from stopping in the half cock notch as it passes the sear's nose during firing.  With such rifles, the trigger must be set before the lock can be cycled.  I won't go into the advantages and disadvantages of the two types of set triggers...for another thread.

I hope that helps clear the mud a little.

[Bob Roller]

Jerry,
My triggers are made to hit the sear arm and then drop back down.
Usually the unset rear trigger is close to the surface or wedge that locks
it into place when set.The idea of having the rear trigger push against the sear arm
when not set is a bad one but then,the "hit and fall back"idea works only
with a lock equipped with a "flY" or one with ONLY a full cock position.
My triggers are not captive to a foundry or a set of moulds and are machined
from whatever suitable bars I have in the shop. The two that Taylor displayed are 0-1
and the pins are ground and polished drill rod going thru reamed holes in both triggers and the bar.
You saw the fancy spring I use on the double lever triggers to control the front triggers and that
is a bit of over kill but it works well.I have only had ONE set of triggers ever returned as a new unit
and that was due to a customer not having the common sense to position that front trigger spring
and that prompted the idea of using one screw to capture both the mainspring for the rear trigger
as well as the front trigger spring.
Hope this helps.

Bob Roller

[smylee grouch]

Dont want to be picky here but I think Baird talked about one Hawken in Kenny Leonard's colection, or someones any way, that was the single lever set trigger. I'm wondering if it was the one he donated to the Museum of the Fur Trade. Not sure and moot point to the discusion but if anyone else knows for sure I would be interested in knowing.

[Bob Roller]

Tom Dawson did make up one of his replicas with a "must be set before cocking"
trigger system. He told me that he used one of my regular Hawken triggers and "crippled"
it. I might have made the lock too but am not sure. I saw the gun one time and that was it.
Tom also told me the gun he copied had this trigger arrangement.
Bob Roller

[Jerry V Lape]

Bob,

Thank you for the explanation.  I still have a couple of related questions about these triggers.  How much clearance is there between the trigger and the sear bar? Is there an optimal distance or range for this placement?  If the cock as at full or half cock how do you lower the cock without firing - does it still work like a simple trigger where you control the cock with your thumb while lifting the sear bar with the trigger so the cock can bypass the notches or is there another method?   

[Bob Roller]

Jerry,
The variables are in the stock and positions of the lock and triggers in relation to each other.
I decock the lock by Holding the rear trigger and releasing it by using the front trigger.
SLOWLY release the rear trigger and it might touch the sear. If it does,assuming a flintlock
is being used,and the frizzen is open,hold the hammer(cock) and push on the back of the rear trigger
and it should release so it can be safely lowered.Another way is to open the frizzen,hold your thumb
just forward of the top jaw screw,set the trigger off and catch the hammer.I've done that a number of times
over the years with no problems.
The ideal distance with my triggers would be to establish an area where the trigger could fly up and hit the sear and then fall back to contact the mainspring of the rear trigger.This would both fire the lock and create a free movement area so the lock could be recocked over an unset trigger. I don't know about other makes of triggers and can't comment about them.

Bob Roller

[Jerry V Lape]

Bob,  I think I almost have it - how high can the trigger spring upward to contact the sear bar sufficient to fire the lock? 

[greybeard]

I make my own set triggers and the test that I do is to set the triggers, balance a quarter on top. Let the triggers go and if the quarter jumps twelve and a half inches in the air they are good to go and will trip the sear. Not very scientific but it works every time for me.
     Now all I have to do is make them as pert as Mr Roller does. His look like jewlery.
         Bob Reader

[Bob Roller]

The reach of the trigger  striking bar's effectiveness is mostly dependent on the spacing
of the trigger in relation to the sear at full cock. Again,variables to deal with.

Bob Roller