Author Topic: barrel straighting  (Read 8583 times)

Offline little joe

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barrel straighting
« on: July 08, 2013, 04:49:44 PM »
Who could I get to straighten a smooth bore 20 ga. bbl. It is a old Green River River Works bbl and is pretty tough. Any help appreciated.

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 05:25:22 PM »
Are you sure it need straightening? Smoothbores are often bent to make them shoot center, since sights are soldered on the barrels instead of dovetailed into the barrels, sights can't therefore be adjusted. If it is new, what makes you think its not straight?

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 05:32:07 PM »
Ive bent barrels, and I tell ya, you can't do it by hand.

I've used vee blocks, and clamp in between them to make a controlled bend. I had to bend way past what I needed to get the barrel to move at all.

Warning: if there is a dovetail cut in the barrel: that is where it is going to bend!

With a controlled bend, you can measure each time it didn't work, and take it a bit farther next time.

This is better than driving over it with your truck, where you only get one shot at it.  :D
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2013, 05:43:45 PM »
I've heard a story of an old gunsmith that had a little forked tree growing outside his shop.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 05:50:59 PM »
Forked tree would work. Use a come-along to bend, and measure the bend at each strain and release.

Soft iron barrels you could probably whack on a log to bend, but not modern steel barrels. They are surprisingly resilient. And resistant.
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Offline Gaeckle

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 06:13:46 PM »
I had to bend a barrel once.....it shot great groups six inches to the left of point of aim.......I removed the barrel and it was so obvious that it was bent, but I had never detected this while building.

To solve this I had on hand three large C-clamps, a long piece of I beam (about 3 inches wide) and some hard oak blocks that were about 2 inches thick and 2 inches square. I placed the barrel on the blocks (and guesstimated the distance between them) which i then placed on the I-beam. This assembly was then clamped onto the beam with the C-clamps and I used the other C-clamp to bend the barrel.........I started at about the center and really cranked down, then I moved the clamp in one direction and clamped down a little less and I repeated this procedure in the other direction.....this whole assembly was supported on two sawhorses.

After I did this I could see an improvement so I put the gun back together and test fired it.....It moved substantially so that I could drift my sights and get a better group.

It was really interesting to see how far this barrel could bend then spring back....it was nerve wracking to say the least........

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 06:24:56 PM »


I tried to put a little up into a 28 gauge Mold and Gun Shop Tulle barrel, but was unsuccessful.  Check out the bend in the solid core door I was using for the base.  This treatment added zero deflection in this barrel.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Dogshirt

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2013, 06:56:49 PM »
I took a Investarms barrel that was bent to a friend with a hydraulic press. It still took 20 minutes to get it
straightened. If it was that hard to straighten, it makes me wonder what the previous owner did to bend it! ???

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 07:21:02 PM »
 Admittedly, the barrels I have bent to regulate, were all old shotgun barrels from Dixie, supposedly made in the 1880's, and were relatively thin wall thickness, compared to some modern barrels. As was mentioned, any major wall thickness change ( wedding rings, dove tails, ect. ) is going to be a problems, if you're not careful. We found that a small hydraulic bottle jack, with a home made adapter to fit a bending head off of an EMT conduit bender, worked better than anything. It spreads out the pressure as you proceed and helps to eliminate kinked barrels. Pushing from below eliminated the issue of running out of space, for the major over bending required. We nailed a 4x4 cripple to the 4x4 center leg of the work bench, to mount the jack. we then cut a hole through the bench top, to allow the jacks piston to fit through. A short piece of heavy wall pipe with threads to fit the bender head, and some creative welding on of another size pipe to fit the jacks ram, along with some home made tall V blocks with ears to accept U bolts, and we thought we were ready. If your bench isn't built like a tank don't try this method. Ours was planked in 2x10 pine and we still pushed it apart. The fix was a steel backing plates below the V blocks on the bottom side of the bench top, held in place by the U bolt that secured the barrel ends. Once we got it built, it worked amazingly well, and even allows you to put a scale behind the barrel to judge the spring back.  

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Online smylee grouch

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2013, 07:30:06 PM »
Taylor, that picture is almost scarrey. I have a four foot chunk of railroad rail that will be used for the job your door is doing. Hope it works.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 07:45:38 PM »
All the words I wrote were naught when compared with Taylor's picture. This confirms the old adage, 'one picture is worth a thousand words'.  :D
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Online smallpatch

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 09:23:37 PM »
To date, I've bent three barrels, both O/R and Swamped Oct.  All came out great.  I do it the way Taylor does, with one addition.  I mark where the blocks are, and the center of the barrel.  Using a straight edge, find a drill bit that just slides under the straight edge at the center mark. You can then make your bend, and have a gage to see how far it's actually moved.

It is scary however.
Previously, I had only bent O/R barrels, till I got the Busty Brunette from A. Martin.  When I got it, it was shooting low, I filed a little on the front sight, and then gave up cause I knew there wasn't going to be much sight left. I emailed Allen to let him know what was going on, and INSTANTLY my cell phone rang, and I was chided for filing the front sight.  >:( When I asked Mr Martin what I should do he said......... Bend the barrel.  Other wise you'll ruin that hand made front sight. ::)

So I did..... shoots point of aim now.  Who knew??
In His grip,

Dane

Dave Dolliver

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2013, 12:14:11 AM »
When bending barrels I use the table on my milling machine to support the barrel between 2 vee blocks.  I can get a 27" length between vee's.  The mill machine with a blank cutter is cranked down to just touch the top of the barrel in the middle.  It is locked in place as it's my reference point to determine deflection and consequent "set'. Load is applied by 2 hold down clamps, bolts, and tee nuts; one 6"on each side of the blank cutter.   Measure the deflection and set with known spacer thicknesses and feeler gauges. 

Octagon barrels are convenient because alignment with the tee blocks is easy.

I use 2 load application points to spread the load and minimize the chance of kinking.  Smoothbore barrels are usually thin walled and often will kink (buckle) if the load is applied all in one place.

It's a trial and error process.  Bend the barrel and shoot it to determine what has been accomplished.  Repeat or reverse if too much.

With smooth bores the root problem is that the stock doesn't fit and the eye is not placed in the proper place for each shot.   I encourage the builder to assemble the gun and shoot it before finishing the butt stock to see if trimming the thickness and height of the comb won't make it shoot true.

Dave Dolliver

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 03:43:39 AM »
Careful using your mill. You can throw it out of tram if the head moves. Check for squareness when you're done.

T

« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 03:51:13 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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Dave Dolliver

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 04:15:45 AM »
There's no load at all on the head; it's only the reference point for measuring.  Or do I mis-understand your comment.

Dave

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2013, 06:04:30 AM »
I thought you meant the blank cutter is what pushes on the middle of the barrel to make the bend.

If that is so, then the upward force can push the head out of square, if it's a Bridgeport style machine. You gotta check squareness of the head to the table once in a while.

Tom

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Dave Dolliver

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2013, 07:02:57 AM »
No, the head does none of the pushing.  The hold down bolts pull the barrel toward the lathe bed.   The head with blank cutter is only the stationary reference point for measuring.  I actually have only a mill-drill and it's no where sturdy enough to do ANY pushing.  (not even very heavy cuts.)  The table is good and heavy, though.

Thanks for the concern.

Dave

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2013, 02:01:57 PM »
Using a milling machine as a substitute for a screw threaded barrel jack is asking for
a problem with the mill.
Tom is right. The head of the mill must be checked for accuracy with a dial indicator
once in a while.

Bob Roller

Offline James Rogers

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2013, 02:35:37 PM »
The barrel bending fixture I have is currently on loan. When it is returned I will snap a picture.

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2013, 07:46:14 PM »



Holy Cow! Mine didn't need to be bent quite so much.....

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 09:20:12 PM »
Holy Cow! Mine didn't need to be bent quite so much.....

That's because you were already bent.

your pal, T
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mlrifleNY

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2013, 04:53:05 PM »
  I have a Rayl barrel from back in the 80's. I just finished a rifle using it and it shoots way high and 8 to 9 inches to the right at 50 yards. It is 1" at the breach and 7/8's" at the muzzle, and 39" long. I had the sights drifted almost to the outer edge of the top flat to get to center.it is no good like this so my question is, is a 4x4 Strong enough to use to bent the barrel? It will be permanently installed behind a 2x4 and under 1/2" plywood bench top.

 Were these barrels made with run out in them back then?  This is the first time the barrel has been used. New Old Stock. I would like for it to be more than a wall hanger.

Jim

ps: this is the rifle in question

« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 06:26:13 PM by mlrifleNY »

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2013, 06:41:33 PM »
Holy Cow! Mine didn't need to be bent quite so much.....

That's because you were already bent.

your pal, T

HOLY COW times 2!!!!!!!


Online smallpatch

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2013, 10:15:33 PM »
Jim,

I've not seen one yet that couldn't be straightened out.

Don Getz has said that he used to "bend them straight".

Your bench set up should work fine.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrel straighting
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2013, 11:22:37 PM »
I'd unbreach the barrel and look to see if the hole is fairly straight. held up to the light, you should see concentric rings of reflection. If they are not centered with each other,the bore may not be straight, even tho' the barrel may be milled straight on the outside.

If you find you have issues with a particular product, you should go right to the manufacturer.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.