16 ga. smoothbore?

[chuck-ia]

I just bought a 16 ga. 38" C profile colerain barrel. I was thinking about having it jug choked, but am starting to change my mind. Question is, could I possibly improve a pattern by coning the muzzle? I have heard about the wads pushing through the shot leaving a donut shaped pattern, would this coning help to move the pressure away from the wads? thanks, chuck-ia

[Jerry V Lape]

The doughnut hole thing is a load development issue, not a coning issue.  If you want to improve patterns after proper load development the jug choke is a well proven way to achieve increased choke effect.  No one shooting modern shotguns are concerned with coning and the vented barrels are not there for that effect either.  The vents are a misguided effort to reduce recoil and muzzle jump.  They are more a noise nuisance than anything in shotguns.  Pressures in shotguns are too low to get much effect from them.  Modern rifle venting is effective due to greater remaining pressure at the muzzle allowing the vents to have sufficient force to function. 

[Daryl]

I'd try it the way it is, Chuck.  Try the normal wad structure with several powder charges first. This is the way we found an effective load in Taylor's 15 bore Manton.  If that fails next testing would be with multuple thin wads between the powder than shot, with different loads of powder. You should find a load with 3 drams or less, double or triple and 1oz. shot.  I'd even drop down to 2 1/4 drams, both 3F and 2F with the the same 1oz. shot load & drop the shot load to about 3/4oz. lowest.

 So - you have powder shrags from 60gr. to 82gr. - both 2F and 3f, as well as shot loads of 3/4oz., 7/8oz., and 1oz. along with multiple wad conbinatons. That should keep you busy for a few range sessions.

[chuck-ia]

Thanks,I will leave well enough alone. I probably won't get started on this gun till early summer, (have to finish my gillispie rifle first) just getting things lined up. I want to build a light weight hunting gun, maybe a north west trade gun, haven't decided yet. This barrel does seem to be on the light side, which is what I wanted, I will have to do some research on the stock construction so I don't build a gun that smacks me in the cheek bone. I had a Pedersoli double barrel 12 ga. that would leave a lump on my cheek after shooting it. I still like the idea of a cyl. bore gun which will shoot shot or round ball. chuck-ia

[northmn]

A couple of thoughts for my 2 cents worth.  A NW gun was until later years a 24 gauge.  Any of the ones worth reproducing were.  The barrel was Oct-round.  If building a fairly authentic weapon is your thing that would not be one.  There is very little more hassle in building a plain fowler.  Some of the early muskets around the Revolutionary war were pretty plain and would be easier building than some of the nicer fowlers you see.  You could get by with a plainer buttplate to inlet and no entry thimble if you chose.   I still like the fowlers.  Had the Pedersoli, Navy Arms, whoever doubles that kicked me in the cheek horribly.  I was told they were patterned after English guns made for overhead shooting.  Whether true or whether they just want to chintz on wood I do not know.

DP

[Dphariss]

I just bought a 16 ga. 38" C profile colerain barrel. I was thinking about having it jug choked, but am starting to change my mind. Question is, could I possibly improve a pattern by coning the muzzle? I have heard about the wads pushing through the shot leaving a donut shaped pattern, would this coning help to move the pressure away from the wads? thanks, chuck-ia

According to the old method it must be coned from both ends and tight in the middle.
Takes a lot of work by someone who knows how.
I would shoot it and experiment first.
Part of the reason for using old guns is to do it the historical way. I think you will look  a long time to find an 18th century American SB with a jug choke.
If you need tighter patterns encase the shot in a paper sleeve like a paper cartridge to hold it together longer. Worth a try.
Dan

[chuck-ia]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will leave the barrel as is. Any suggestions for a plain fowler? chuck-ia

[northmn]

Go to the antique section and browse.  Also Mike Brooks has a website in which you can browse fowlers.  I used to read a book in the library when I should ahve been studying.  I think the Author was Neuman.  Something like Weapons of the American Revolution or a similar title.  B&W photos.  Browse Track of the Wolf guns for sale.  You will start getting the feel for what you want.  Most fowlers can be made pretty plain.

DP

[J.D.]

Someone mentioned a series of thin over card wads  as being effective.  I prefer a single .135 card, over powder, and an 1/8 inch thick section sliced off of a fiber wad, over shot.

Increasing shot charge to 1 1/2 more shot, by volume, in ratio to powder charge helps too.

[northmn]

The primary reason the thin wads were mentioned was possibly to give a little more leeway in load development.  I have used card wads as thick as .200" and they worked OK but the idea is to prevent the wads from hitting the shot and developing donuts.  I also like to use a thin lubed fiber wad as it makes reloading easier.  If it works don't fix it.

DP

[J.D.]

Agreed. IMHO, the idea of equal volumes of powder, wad, and shot don't seem to work all that well in flint guns. The weight and bulk of lubed fiber wads seem to punch holes in a pattern, where a single card, over powder, is less likely to do that. Thin fiber filler wads, over a card wad,  would, probably,  also help prevent blowing holes in the pattern.

In my experience, card wads seal the bore to prevent gas leaks that can adversely affect patterns. Fiber wads, over powder, as some folks appear to use, seem to leak gas that can blow patterns.

Either way, the only way to determine what a particular gun likes is to shoot it...allot, changing only one variable each shooting session to see what works and what doesn't.

[Daryl]

 J.D.  - I've found in book diagrams that BP loads (and smokeless before plastic) of the past and present use a thin card - usually 1/8" to 1/4" over the powder, THEN the fibre or cushion fiber wad, then the shot, then thin B or BB wad for an overshot wad. I've never tried fibre wads by themselves, as they aren't designed to stop powder gasses - they lack the integrity - as you found.  They are for cushoning the shot only.  Next time Taylor and I get out shooting shot, I'll try splitting a fiber wad into 3 pieces and then load it as one to see if that helps or hinders.

 The thin B (nowadays) or BB as it used to be called, is a very thin, hard card.  Stop-action photos taken just off from the muzzle usually show the thin over-shot B wad flying ahead of and away from the shot cloud due to the gasses rushing past the shot column. Thus, it doesn't hurt patterns as some used to think.

 

[docwhite]

There are some absolutely delightful fowlers in Ton Grinslade's "Flintlock Fowlers- the first guns made in America" recently published by Scurlock Publications. A few are decidedly primitive, no buttplate, no rear thimble, hammer forged trigger guard made from a gate handle. real easy to build yet charming and fully functional. And be sure to use an old cast off doglock from a dutch musket to scramble the provanance even further. see pp 57, 100 and 230. DOC

[Longknife]

DOC, glad you have joined us, hope posting on this forum doesn't slow down your gun building!!!!....Ed

[chuck-ia]

Thanks, I have the book, will have a closer look. chuck