Author Topic: accuracy expectaions  (Read 13130 times)

ramrod

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accuracy expectaions
« on: July 19, 2013, 06:46:46 AM »
what size groups should i expect from a 50 cal. thompson percussion rifle ? will be shooting patched r. ball & 3f goex . are 1' groups possible with 1 in 48 twist rifling ? just curious , have not begun to work up a load yet , and looking for sugestions. as always thanks in advance .

Offline drago

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 01:27:41 PM »
I think 50 yards bench rest should be possible when you find your load. Some might be able to do it at 75 or 100. Of course good eyesight helps.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 02:27:27 PM »
A 1" group at 50 yd of the bench is posible (with the right load). You will have to find the right load, powder type and charge, and patch combo and ball size. Make notes and compare.

Offline Frizzen

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 05:21:26 PM »
Mine shot the best with 70 grs Goex FFF  .017 pillow ticking with Teflon , But I can't remember the
Ball size. Either .495 or .498. This was over 40 yrs ago. Won a state championship with it.
The Pistol Shooter

Offline hanshi

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 10:32:01 PM »
My .50 Va rifle did about an inch with 3F and a .490" ball.  Such accuracy as you suggested is very possible.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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ramrod

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2013, 01:56:51 AM »
hansi what was the twist rate of your bbl. ,  this is my worry . i have a green mountain 50 bbl. on my t. c.  flint gun and that one will keep 3 shots in 1 in. but its a 1 in 72 twist not thompsons 1 in 48. as i call it compromise twist.

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2013, 03:36:33 AM »
A 1:48 twist can certainly give you tight groups with the right powder charge, patching, patch lube, and ball diameter.   Finding all those parameters and some of the variables that go along, like whether and how often to swab between shots, is apt to take some time,  several pounds of powder and lead, and range time taking notes.   A methodical approach such as  described in  "Dutch Schoulz's Accuracy System" would be one place to start.

The difference between a 1:48 and another barrel, say 1:66, may be that the 1:66 would be more tolerant of heavier powder charges.  
And, if you can't find a load for the 1:48  Hawken barrel, Green Mountain still lists drop in barrels with slow 1:70  twist for TC Hawkens.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:27:05 PM by SCLoyalist »

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2013, 07:01:56 AM »
When I first started muzzleloading target shooting it was  back in 1987 with a TC Hawken .54
3 or 4 others in our club had the same guns and there were too many  48,  49 and 50 scores at 50 yds to call them accidental !   If you didn't shoot at least a 44 or 46 at 100 yds you were out of the running for top 3   My gun was percussion, and it would shoot an inch or less at 50 yds with 60 gr FFg,   I can't remember the patch thickness, but the balls were .535   The rifling was fairly shallow if I recall correctly.
I tried increasing the charge but the group opened up.  When you find a load your gun likes, it will shoot .
The difference with the .54 target rifle I now have is that it will shoot very well with 60 to 100+ gr of FFg
Slower twist, etc. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2013, 08:11:32 AM »
1" 100 yard groups are possible but the conditions have to be perfect even at 50. A breeze one can feel on their cheek will drift a RB at 50. 5 MPH will "blow" the group unless its allowed for and probably will anyway unless its a steady 5 or 10 that does not vary. Rifles that shoot one hole at 60 yards can shoot 4-5" groups in a variable 10mph wind.

Dan
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 04:06:45 PM »
You are absolutely correct Dan. And that fact is what makes RB target shooting so interesting   :)

Offline hanshi

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 10:25:31 PM »
hansi what was the twist rate of your bbl. ,  this is my worry . i have a green mountain 50 bbl. on my t. c.  flint gun and that one will keep 3 shots in 1 in. but its a 1 in 72 twist not thompsons 1 in 48. as i call it compromise twist.



It was - I needed cash and had to sell it   :'( - 1-66", IIRC.  I know it wasn't slower than that.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Pvt. Lon Grifle

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2013, 12:22:48 AM »
I would expect that if you can handle developing an accuracy load for 100 yards, your slow twist barrel will allow a much higher energy level than something like a 1/48 would allow with RB. This would support a flatter trajectory too.Many hunters and target shooters can do very well at 100.

Lon

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2013, 06:47:00 PM »
There are untold hundreds of shooters, with custom long rifles, and Hawkens,  that have had their keister handed to them, by some kid that spends his afternoons, after school. shooting his old T.C. out behind the barn. They will shoot amazingly well, if you do the homework on loads, and practice like crazy. They kind of have a hard time when the range gets out past 100 yards, but even there if you practice a lot, and get the load the gun likes, you can do well. Good luck.

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ramrod

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2013, 07:32:02 AM »
had a hance to get to the range today. combination was .015 th. oiled patch  .495 rb. 60 gr. 3f goex.  1st 3 shots clover leafed at 25 yds.  only problem combo way to tight, had to hammer ball home . dont want to go smaller on patch as rifling was cutting them. will try .490 ball next session out. only fired 7 shots , was afraid to try any more as almost didnt get last one on powder. as always any sugestions are greatly appreciated.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2013, 04:06:28 PM »
 You are probably pretty close to the working load for that gun. I suggest .490 balls rather than .495's just because as foulings build up a thicker patch is a little more forgiving than the lead ball, and less likely to get the patched ball stuck in the barrel. Don't underestimate the importance of the lube you use. I have had good results with Moose Milk for range use. But, have also found Bore Butter melted, and poured, over a stack of patches to be pretty good as well. If your a do it yourselfer, venison, or mutton, tallow, mixed with a little bear oil, is outstanding. if patch cutting continues, you might try linen patching rather than cotton. its much stronger although its more expensive. Good Luck.

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Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2013, 04:10:55 PM »
had a hance to get to the range today. combination was .015 th. oiled patch  .495 rb. 60 gr. 3f goex.  ....... was afraid to try any more as almost didnt get last one on powder. as always any sugestions are greatly appreciated.

You're not off to a bad start.  Going to .490RB may solve your problem.   It may be, too, after the maybe 100 rounds, the problem may go away as loading and firing 'break in' the barrel.   As to your comment about 'almost didn't get the last one on powder',  were you swabbing between shots?   I can shoot a 20 shot match without cleaning the bore between shots, but I have to be using a  pretty wet spit patch or moose-milk lubed patch which effectively pushes fouling down the bore ahead of the ball as the ball is rammed home.   I always had to swab every shot or two when using an oiled patch like an OxYoke pre-cut.

If patch integrity is still an issue after further experimenting with RB diameters, patching and patch lube, then the options that come to mind are to lap the barrel (several folks recommend wrapping a bit of fine scotch-brite around a jag with a little valve-grinding compound and running that up/down the bore a few hundred  times), or to cone the muzzle.    I wouldn't do either of those, though, until I had put a couple of boxes of balls downrange, but you can read up on the techniques if you do a search with the site's search engine on the terms like  "coning" and "lapping" or "scotch brite".

Offline Daryl

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 06:35:17 PM »
had a hance to get to the range today. combination was .015 th. oiled patch  .495 rb. 60 gr. 3f goex.  1st 3 shots clover leafed at 25 yds.  only problem combo way to tight, had to hammer ball home . dont want to go smaller on patch as rifling was cutting them. will try .490 ball next session out. only fired 7 shots , was afraid to try any more as almost didnt get last one on powder. as always any sugestions are greatly appreciated.

Get some 320 grit emery or wet/dry paper and use the end of your thumb, pushing into the muzzle, rotate your thumb, turning the barrel periodically and smooth the crown of your barrel.

The cutting of the patch will stop, the bore will stop picking building up fouling and accuracy will improve.

25 yard shooting will not tell you much at all - you need to learn to shoot & practice at 50 yards, imho.

The method!



Here is a piece of .50 cal. TC barrel with the button rifled .004" rifling. It easily loads .019" to .020"denim (8 ounce) and a .495" PURE lead ball using a starter and the palm of my hand as the smacker to punch it into the muzzle. The gentle radius of the crown draws (swages) the patched ball into the grooves, elongating the ball slightly, giving a very tight fit that wipes the bore clean from the last shot as you load it. Thus, fouling does not accumulate, shot to shot, thus loading never gets difficult.

The OIL you use as a lube is important. It must soften black powder fouling or it will not work well.  Neetsfoot oil and Mink oil are the two best I know of, for a hunting-type lube. I find water based lubes best for trail walks and normal target shooting.

Daryl

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Offline Daryl

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 06:37:30 PM »
Incidentally, pushing a patch down inside the bore before re-grinding/polishing the crown is a good idea to catch the 'stone and metal' dust. You can hook it out with long needle nosed pliers, tweezers or a dental 'pick'.
Daryl

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ramrod

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 11:25:53 PM »
think i have a tight bore. .015 patch &.490 rb. and still to tight to push. have 2 other t.c. bbls. and both shoot 5 under bore size balls with .018 ticking. wish i had a set of ball gauges.

Offline Daryl

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 06:37:28 PM »
There are no TIGHT TC barrels that I am aware of. They are .500" or larger.  Both Taylor's and Tom's rifles, my hunting companions - in the 70's - had .502" and .503" bores in their TC's. Mine was .500"- I was lucky - I had a tight one and the most accurate of the 3.  Of course, TC back then used the same button for all barrels (I expect that hasn't changed, but their QC on barrels might have,) so the 'boys' rifling was even shallower than .004"- what looked like mere scratches in Tom's rifle - go figure. He shot maxi's and had to wrap them in a cigarette paper to get them to stay inside his barrel for the first shot.

The point is, your bore is not too tight for a .490" ball and .015" patch.  It will be too tight for that combination to fall to the breech by the weight of the rod - yes - or be lowered without you actually using any force, but if you want accuracy from those 'cheap' button rifled barrels, you need to make it tight.  The .015" and a .490" ball will require a short starter as well, but not a lot of force to seat it - it is not a really TIGHT combination. It will not thumb start- however, it should deliver fairly good accuracy with a light charge, up to about 80gr. 2F max -- for a guess.  Our TC's ALL shot best with 2F powder and it produced LESS fouling than 3F.

In my own TC barrel, the tight one, with the 'tight' .500" bore and .004" rifling I tested .490" balls and patches from .015" to .025" using 3F and 2F from 70gr. to 110gr. by TC's manual back then. I also tested as the .495" ball with patches to .022" heavy 'brushed' denim I found in a yard goods store in Smithers, BC. I used the same powder charges for testing and found 2F was best, with around 80 to a maximum of 90gr. of it.  

By then, I'd been shooting my TC "Hawken" for about 6 to 8 months and had learned about crowning and how the factory crown would not allow a tight enough combination to produce accuracy. An old machinist fellow from Kalispel, Lester H. Hawkes originally from Montana was MY mentor in this.  He told me in order to shoot, that I had to use a VERY tight ball and patch combination in that button rifled barrel. He showed me some Bauska Barrels he had, with cut rifling and explained the differences to me.  It all made sense and worked. He showed me how to re-crown the muzzle so the patches wouldn't cut and would form with the ball into the bore, fitting tightly and loading  without problems.  From then on, loading and shooting all day without wiping was my routine. You might actually have to flex a muscle or two to get the ball and patch into the bore - that's the nature of the beast and this sport. If you don't care much about accuracy or having to wipe between shots, then by all means, use a .010" patch.  About 10 months after I bought that TC, I put a real round ball barrel on it, a Bauska .50 cal with cut rifling. That barrel was incredibly accurate and I found the .495" ball and .022" brushed denim patch shot incredibly well in it too.  That basic combination  of ball .005" UNDER and a 10 ounce denim patch has proven itself in every barrel I've used since.

"Here is a piece of .50 cal. TC barrel with the button rifled .004" rifling. It easily loads .019" to .020"denim (8 ounce) and a .495" PURE lead ball using a starter and the palm of my hand as the smacker to punch it into the muzzle. The gentle radius of the crown draws (swages) the patched ball into the grooves, elongating the ball slightly, giving a very tight fit that wipes the bore clean from the last shot as you load it. Thus, fouling does not accumulate, shot to shot, thus loading never gets difficult."

If there is something there you don't understand, I would be most happy to explain it to you.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 06:02:59 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2013, 08:27:14 PM »
Daryl is trying very hard to help you attain your rifles accuracy potential.  What is difficult, is trying to do this from a distance and over a computer.  We cannot see your process, your equipment, etc. so we can only advise on our own experience.  And that is based on having PURE lead for balls, patching and lube which should not have any difference here or there, and having a bore that is polished and uniform from muzzle to breech.  We cannot tell from here if your lead is a little on the hard side, or if your bore is frosted or even pitted from the formidable humidity of the east coast.  I've had rifles in the shop whose bores were ruined from a poor cleaning regime and had to be replaced before easy loading and accuracy returned to the rifle.  We cannot tell how much energy you are using to load your rifle, but I maintain that it takes very little energy or determination to load a .005" undersized PURE lead ball, .020" cotton patch soaked with saliva, once the combination is flush with the muzzle.  Once in the bore, the combination cannot be larger than the bore, and thus cannot be so tight that a wooden rod cannot send it with minimal effort to the powder in the breech.  With a patch of sufficient thickness, thus able to carry an adequate amount of lubricant, your bore's fouling is completely scrubbed off while seating the next load.  It does not build or cake.  I clean my rifle barrel in a pail of cold water, and when I pour it down the drain, it is only grey, after an entire day's shooting.  On a bet, I'd drink it - it's that clean.

I wish you joy in your shooting.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline sydney

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2013, 02:18:00 AM »
Hi Taylor--$  5.00
       let me know when
        Sydney

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2013, 03:36:54 AM »
I'm in   ;D

ramrod

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2013, 05:13:44 AM »
this is a kit bbl.has a k in font of ser. no. finally got a bore mirror today and will check bore condition . super nice bluing if this is a cold blue job , original owner did a heckuva blue job cause it sure looks factory. bore looks as new.

Offline Daryl

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Re: accuracy expectaions
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2013, 05:59:18 PM »
Send the money in boys, I'll hold it & take the second drink.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V