Picket bullets

[Dphariss]

These are the traditional cloth patched sporting rifle "conical" used in America from about 1830 on by some shooters. They were pretty accurate to 200 yards or so. But guide starters were used for best accuracy. A piece of equipment I hope I can avoid making.
The flat point weighs 132+- grains swaged from lead wire in a swage I made using a Dake "0" arbor press.
The pointed design was given early on on advise from people with more experience. I left the base round though and those don't work either. So I reshaped the base plug.
The FP with flat base is showing some promise but I forgot my fitted end loading rod when I went out to try them.
They differ from originals in that they have a short band at the base most originals seem to be a straight taper.
In limited testing they seemed to work best with a small diameter patch, just big enough to get around the band. I was intentionally using thin cotton patches so I could start them easy and found none after firing but with the wind that was not unusual. Will try some thicker linen next time. And maybe a card wad over the powder.
I shot them with 60 gr of FFG Swiss.
Accuracy was not much, muddy, windy etc kept me from getting where I wanted to set up.
But compared to the round based bullets they worked fairly well.
This *should* work OK but I have to do some serious shooting to really find out and the wind has been running 25-40 mph for several days now. But at least its above freezing so the snow turned to mud and now that should be gone...

Dan




The swage.


Base punch being recut to flat.

[Woodbutcher]

 Dphariss:
 Absolutly fascinating stuff! May I ask questions?
 Ok, you made the swage, and am I correct that you squeeze it in an arbor press? That would beat the heck out of the cost of swage setups that I've read about!
 Picket bullets, they differ in shape from what I'm used to seeing. Don't have a lot of bearing surface against the bore, so care is needed to keep alignment. ( I hope I said that correctly ) And they're cloth patched.
 What advantages would a Picket bullet offer over a "contemporary" design? Could an available design be used with a patch, such as a cast bullet?
 Perhaps something like this could help a .32 squirrel rifle hit a groundhog  a bit farther away.
 Thank you.              Woodbutcher

[Mike R]

Cute.  I don't have a photo, but back when I bought my first MLer--it was a .36 H&A underhammer--A gunsmith friend suggested I try conicals [to incease bullet weight for hunting].  We made a mold by drilling into blocks of brass with an appropriate size bit.  The resulting bullet had a flat base and straight sides with abrupt cone tip. Maybe just by dumb luck [although I came to be amazed by his innate skills and ability to "judge" things] that bullet would group an inch or better at 100 yds [using the tang peep sight on the rifle].  I don't even know the powder charge exactly except I used a large empty case from an old Russian Rem Rolling Block round--probably 70 grs fffg?   I know every one scattered on the range when I loaded her up ....

[Daryl]

Love this stuff.  I was concerned the flat base of the pictured flat nose would prevent the cloth patch from wrapping around the bullet's base properly, hence my initial preference for the round base bullet.  With the round base bullet, the cloth would be tightly held around it's base as it is with a round ball. Perhaps this isn't the problem I envision.

A guide starter would be easy to make for a round muzzle such as virtually all the Remington 'trade' barrels (I have seen) show.  This 'starter' would not be difficult to carry, at least not much more difficult than a normal short starter, something all of us up here are used to using.

The patch size would be fairly critical, to prevent cloth from wrapping up too far and interfering with the fit of the bullet's nose to the plunger as Dan found - perhaps for a different reason.

As always, I am prone to using a thicker patch and dislike the need or use of a 'wad' to hold back the powder's gasses.  Mike's findings & accuracy with the little .36 H&A exceeds Ned Robert's shooting with his little .30 with a short 20" barrel.  Along with a round ball mould for close range, it had a short slug for longer ranges - we all remember his 'trials' set forth by 'Uncle Alvaro' (last name might not be correct) before Ned was allowed a 'hunting' rifle and to accompany his Uncle on hunting expeditions.  oops- time to Take Tracy to work.

[Daryl]

Woodbutcher- hey- that name resembles me!  BTW- arbor presses are available from a "Man's Store" here called of all hings, Princess Auto. They have all sorts of stuff we need, some good quality, some not so good - but - their return policy is "we want to make you happy" and it's good.  Oh yeah -  Arbor presses - from 1 ton to 20 ton - $25.00 to whatever.  they are adjustable in the ram for tightness with screw driven bushings and are pretty good, but a bit rough.  I wonder if a store such as this exists in your neighbourhood?

The small, precision arbor press I use for loading my .17 CF's is not suitable for such heavy work, but the heavier cast steel ones at Princess Auto are. Guess I need to buy one.

[Daryl]

Woodbutcher- the picket rifles usually gave better long range accuracy and power over a round ball.  That is their advantage. They usually shot best in round ball twists, something elongated bullets seldom do.  Most picket rifle twists were in the 36" to 48" range, whereas long range bullets required faster twists.  The design of the bullet allowed shooters who were used to cloth patching round balls, to use a slug which gave deeper penetration on game and better accuracy on the target. The earliest match rifles shot pickets unless I'm mistaken. Picket rifles were used late into the percussion era for match shooting although specialized heavy rifles designed for ultimate accuracy at long range, some to 50 pounds, shot much longer bullets with very heavy charges.  The picket couldn't compete with these, but the picket rifle was more easily carried as a hunting rifle. Ned Roberts had a .44 cal William Reed double rifle that shot a picket bullet.

[Dphariss]

Dphariss:
 Absolutly fascinating stuff! May I ask questions?
 Ok, you made the swage, and am I correct that you squeeze it in an arbor press? That would beat the heck out of the cost of swage setups that I've read about!
 Picket bullets, they differ in shape from what I'm used to seeing. Don't have a lot of bearing surface against the bore, so care is needed to keep alignment. ( I hope I said that correctly ) And they're cloth patched.
 What advantages would a Picket bullet offer over a "contemporary" design? Could an available design be used with a patch, such as a cast bullet?
 Perhaps something like this could help a .32 squirrel rifle hit a groundhog  a bit farther away.
 Thank you.              Woodbutcher

The cloth patch keeps them from moving in the bore.
Yes they will increase range.
I am playing with it to see if it really will work in a 48" twist.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Woodbutcher- the picket rifles usually gave better long range accuracy and power over a round ball.  That is their advantage. They usually shot best in round ball twists, something elongated bullets seldom do.  Most picket rifle twists were in the 36" to 48" range, whereas long range bullets required faster twists.  The design of the bullet allowed shooters who were used to cloth patching round balls, to use a slug which gave deeper penetration on game and better accuracy on the target. The earliest match rifles shot pickets unless I'm mistaken. Picket rifles were used late into the percussion era for match shooting although specialized heavy rifles designed for ultimate accuracy at long range, some to 50 pounds, shot much longer bullets with very heavy charges.  The picket couldn't compete with these, but the picket rifle was more easily carried as a hunting rifle. Ned Roberts had a .44 cal William Reed double rifle that shot a picket bullet.

I am going to try a "naked" bullet too. Lymans old 38-40 bullet will go in the GM 40 cal (these are now 56" twist mine is an earlier 48")  but I think the ones I have on hand might be a little hard.
I sent you and e-mail too.

Dan

[Mike R]

I used unpatched homemade conicals in that old .36--but well greased with Crisco.  They were a snug fit without a patch.  I need to correct my earlier post--I got 1" groups NOT"or better" at 100 yds [not sure how those words came out of my head].  The rifle would group under 1.5" regularly at 100 yds with the tang peep--But I had young and very fine eyes back then--significantly better than 20/20.  I often wish I had kept it, but I moved on.  I believe it cost me about $75-100 way back  ca. 1970.  As a poor Lefttenant  in the USArmy I was making barely enough to feed my family, so "better" guns were out of the question.  I got $50 in trade for it a few years later when I had the hots for a "real deer rifle".  But that rascal could shoot!

[Dphariss]

Right now I consider them a PITA for general use. But its something I have been wondering about for some time. The shooting of elongated bullets in the 48" twist.
I know they will stabilize and right now holes in the target are round.
My next project is making a simple starter to match the bullet and double check the nipple seat and "improve" the clean out screw in the Ohio made Mowrey action I am using for a test bed.I set the front sight back far enough on the barrel to allow a trim and recrown (its from the factory GM right now) and turning round for a guide starter if needed.
Besides I have some friends who have been doing this.
It would be really neat to build a George Schalck top of the line Schuetzen Rifle as shown on pages 148 thru 152 of "The American Percussion Schuetzen Rifles" by Hamiltopn & Rowe.
HA! in looking back through this book I found a nearly identical bullet to the flat base and a similar swage as well. Not surprising since this bullet style is a natural for this type swage.
I started making these back in the 80s for PP bullets for BPCRs. Idea came from one of my gunsmithing mentors.
Gotta run

Dan

[Daryl]

Dan -  I thought of using a .38/40 bullet, but would rather use a picket - just because. Taylor might be a mite perturbed when I want to turn the muzzle round for a guide starter - HA! Woud be an interesting rifle, that's for sure.  My .40 has a 48" twist - wide grooves, very narrow lands.

[albert]

Reminds me of a story in an old issue of "Muzzle Blasts" about "Ben Mills"rifles. He built some of his rifles to use both  r.b. and picket bullets. I have one of his rifles of about .33 cal. that I would like to experiment with. If anybody could lead me to the year of the issue that I'm talking about, let me know,I have allmost a complete set of magazines,and it would cut down on looking.

[Dan]

Dan, what caliber is your rifle?

The belted design with FB & FN was fairly common once the utility of conicals became recognized for target work.  Pictures below show several variations of picket bullets, ranging from about .40 caliber to something a bit over .50 Cal, don't recall the dims on the big one at the moment.  Second from left came from a mould made by a fellow named Lewis, an original from back in the days when men were steel and ships were wood.

Everything I've read, and it's not a great deal, says the sugarloaf picket such as your round base version had a lot of issues regarding consistent accuracy.  Been working a little with one of the Lewis designs in a Reinhard rifle with little success.  Twist is around 38", bore of about .388".



Far left is a two piece swagged bullet.

[Daryl]

Dan- I know this thread is about pickets, but I had a .50 Bauska barrel with 38" twist, about .008" deep rifling, maybe .010" - memory on that is dim.  I shot Tc maxiballs in it along with bulelts, hollowbased and solid from a Lyman .500" HB mould that was obsolete when I came across it.  Originally, as a HB design being fired in a 38" (rather slow) twist, I felt it needed more weight in the butt, so I trimmed back the plunger on my poor-man's lathe - an electric drill held in a bench vise and used files. Did a lot of that, back in the 70's.  The resulting bullet'e weight came up, but so did it's accuracy.  This bullet as well as the TC maxi-ball, lubed with Crisco (what else in those days), and pre-engraved in a short section of barrel, both shot into 1" to 1 1/4" groups off the bags. I could just hold a 100/100 score on our 3-position 100 yard targets, off double bags - at 100yards. I had only open sights I think, but may have had a Lyman-type tang mounted peep.  I do remember buying one once, but don't remember using it.  Anyway, those bullets would shoot well in the .50's 38" twist of course, shot naked, but needed pre-engraving for a mechanical fit once I wanted to shoot them.

[docwhite]

Pickett bullet rifles can be extremely accurate. I have built  number of them over the years, the best were 50 cal land to land, grooves .008 deep, twist 1-36 throwing a sugarloaf bullet with flat base measuring .500 at the base and weighing 450 grains, loading with a muzzle fitted straight line starter, The bullet cherry has been a carbide rotary cutter commonly available from good hardware shops, the mold brass with base pour feature. The patch was cut to fit the muzzle, using a round cutter made from a rotary saw in a drill press, the patch lubed then placed up into the cup of the straight line starter after first placing the bullet in a recess cut into the starter nose to precisely fit. The straight line starter was then placed pver the round of the muzzle, and the palm used to slam the bullet into the muzzle. Groups wi ;Dth a peep averaged lass than 1.5" at 100. They are fun to work with, as traditional as can be and shoot very very well. Oh yes, BP powder charge 80 gr, 2fg. DOC

[timM]

Docwhite,........what patch material and thickness? tim

[tg]

It would be nice to see more of the original style connical bullets made available so the trdaitional ML hunters would not have to rely on the modern design stuff and be able to use bullets and still be using traditional gear.

[Dphariss]

It would be nice to see more of the original style connical bullets made available so the trdaitional ML hunters would not have to rely on the modern design stuff and be able to use bullets and still be using traditional gear.

Pickets are a REAL PITA to use and good accuracy requires a guide starter.
The round ball is far better choice than the picket for hunting. If you need more power than read the "Big Bore" thread. It really is the best answer.
I have resigned myself the making a guide starter and may start it today but my heart is really not it it. Turn the muzzle round. The bore and fit the started body too it, then make the starter to fit the the nose of the bullet. Everything has to line up. I am doing this out of curiosity not need. If I had any sense I would rebarrel the Mowrey to use a BPCR bullet for shooting to longer ranges. But that is not the reason for this. I was trying to make the picket work without a guide starter. I have succeeded to some extent.
Right now I am getting about 3" at 75 yards and shooting 3 shot groups just looking for things that work. This with the target sights from my BPCR. Yes it will likely kill deer to 100 yards but it would still not kill as well as my 16 bore with a RB.
Now if you want to play around shooting for recreation to 200-300 yards they are better than the RB when sorted out I am told. But I do not consider them a better hunting projectile than the RB unless the RB is pretty small. So yes the picket can make a small bore ML a better deer gun. But is it better than a 54 or bigger RB at typical ML ranges. Doubtful.
As a "rifle crank" friend related over the phone the other day the picket is the hardest bullet to get to shoot accurately he has ever worked with.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Dan, what caliber is your rifle?

<snip>

This is a 40 one of the 48 twist GM barrels.
I ended up with a belt because the swage I make makes a belt naturally unless the nose punch is run into the base, not a good idea. I used to make these swages for testing PP bullets in BPCR and just made a short one for the picket. Then in going back through the American Percussion Schuetzen Rifles a few days ago I found a nearly identical bullet which made me grin.
I have several friends who have been playing with picket rifles for some time and this is partly why I started this project. That and long term curiosity.
So far its been a big PITA but fun. I have resigned myself to making a guide starter and had bought the brass stock for it over a year ago.
I guess I could try wiping between shots before doing all the lathe work....
Dan

[Daryl]

I recall, many years ago, looking over those rotary burrs or files of tear-drop and sugar-loaf shape, wondering if I could devise a method of closing mould blocks on them to cut two perfect mould halves.  Their shapes closely resembled picket bullet shapes of the past as pictured in Ned's book.  Here we have DocWhite mentioning he's made moulds using them.  I found grooved lubed bullets, pre-fit in a section of barrel answered my problems, were more accurate and just never pursued the rotary burrs and files.  Now I'm re-thinking the burr-bit-mould HA!

[tg]

I have no use for bulets myself I have found that the ball will work well as long as I do my part, (reasonable range and proper shot placement) There are so many folks useing modern bullets and hanging the tradaitional handle on the  experience It would be nice if there were some truely traditional bullets for those who cannot find the use of the round ball to be sufficient.

[Daryl]

TG- the round ball as Dan already said is certainly sufficent and generally much better for hunting with most rifles.  The 'draw' to pickets is their history of being difficult to get to work well, but work well on targets when accomplished therefore the reward is to make it happen.  Oh yeah, they have an attraction - to some of us anyway.

[tg]

There were quite a few connical designs in the mid 1850's amd earlier yet today the common choice for hunter is to use one of the moderen design bullits, I often wonder if the original type were offered (other rhan the Picket) if anyone would try them so they could make a valid claim to hunting with traditional gear.

[Dphariss]

There were quite a few connical designs in the mid 1850's amd earlier yet today the common choice for hunter is to use one of the moderen design bullits, I often wonder if the original type were offered (other rhan the Picket) if anyone would try them so they could make a valid claim to hunting with traditional gear.

 SFAIK there were 2 in normal civilian use circa 1850s. The short picket or "sugar loaf" in several forms and the long PP slug. I suppose "naked bullets" were tried as well. There are few options as far as design, ball, picket, slug or Minie.  We will not get into the various "fitted" bullets the English used that were cast to fit the rifling. I would have to go back and read the "Improved American Rifle" by Chapman(1830s) some more to refresh , which I guess I should if I keep fooling with picket bullets.
The only bullet that was worth a @!*% for hunting was the flat point picket aside from being difficult to load "square" it probably had no faults if shot from a twist in the 30-36" range. For best accuracy it seems to require a guide starter and the false muzzle was originally used with the picket as well.
The minie was a military bullet and did not work all that well for anything else or shoot very accurately compared to the picket or the PP slug and also required light powder charges and had a trajectory that was pretty "round". People must remember that the civilian hunter and the military view the bullet very differently. The hunter wants to kill the animal quickly so he can sell or eat it. The military does not care if the target is killed. It simply wants him put out of action. In most cases this is pretty easy to do. It does not affect the outcome differently if the man is dead, wounded and dies 2 weeks later or recovers in a month or 2 so long as he is out of the fight after being hit. Thus even though the Minie proved to be very erratic in its performance when striking man or beast it remained basically unchanged until replaced by the cartridge arms. For military purposes it was effective enough.
The minie and all the bore sized or under "naked" bullets did not always stay in place when loaded.

Most hunters likely used a RB. It worked well and needed no extra tools to load it.
Regardless of what you hear in the "gun press" or from the shills for the inline makers the RB properly sized for the game and used under 100-120 yards is a very effective killer.
The picket bullet intrigues me because its an original way to increase the range and it was used in the west Lewis H. Garrard mentions a man on the Santa Fe Trail with Hawken that shot bullets an inch long. This is about right for a 50-54 caliber picket bullet.
And there matches for the picket rifle. For hunting I would rather use my 54 or 16 bore RB guns. But I like to try stuff and was thinking of shooting a deer with the 40 and a RB out of curiosity so I might try a picket if I get it working properly.

Note that my actual experience with the picket, minie and such is pretty limited but the conical and its pluses and minuses are fairly well documented and I have some friends who have been shooting pickets and naked bullets. The only dedicated "bullet" rifle I ever had we made to shoot a 500+ grain 45 bullet.

Dan

[Dan]

I don't know this has any merit but before I started turning a barrel for a starter I'd give consideration to making one that fit as is.  Perhaps by boring your brass to the major diameter of the barrel you could, after placing it on the barrel, fill the voids over the flats with epoxy or pewter?  Would fit well enough I'd think.

You've seen testimony to my travails over at WSU probably so I won't go into all the details here.  I think my central issue relates to having a groove depth of some .018".  It is a puzzle....  Mr. Reinhard put a twist rate suitable for conical bullets and grooves appropriate for round balls.  I don't know if he was tippin' the bottle that night or if I'm just dense.  Someday I'll figure out what works.  I hope.  He obviously intended that a starter be used...it's just for what that mystifies me.