Aqua Fortis & German Silver?

[cunninmp]

Hi Everyone,
So I just acquired a very nice Vincent in the "white". Nice curl in the maple stock.
I stripped the stock of all brass and everything else.
The only thing left on it are German Silver/Nickel Silver inlays on the cheekpiece, wrist, and forearm. These are pinned in with GS/NS pins very nicely. Cannot remove the pins or I would never get it back together. Because GS/NS are a subset of brass, here is my question.
I want to put on one coat of Aqua Fortis (sand) and then either LMF Maple or Nut Brown to bring out the grain.
All I can think of at this point is to mask off the inlays, apply the AF, apply the heat gun, and then sand. Apply baking soda and water to nutrilize to back off the acid in the AF. Then go ahead and stain and finish normally.
I know that AF will leach out the zinc in brass, but have no idea about the GS/NS.
Have any of you tried this before? What were the results? Or I am going about this the wrong way?
I've thought about not using the AF, but this is such a nice piece of maple, I'd hate to not see it embellished.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide,
Mike C.
Groveland, CA

[Hungry Horse]

I would try cider vinegar with iron desolved in it, rather than Aquafortis. Its an acid stain, but not as aggressive as aquafortis. It may not attack the German silver like the nitric acid does.

                        Hungry Horse

[T*O*F]

I think if you apply your AF with a swab, which should give you some control going around the inlays, it will not affect them.  Just swab up to the edges and wipe any off the inlays immediately with a Q-tip or bit of Kleenex.  It's not going to be on there long enough to do any damage and you will probably sand off any residue when you do the rest of the stock.

[cunninmp]

T*O*F
Great idea. I should have thought of that in the first place.
I think I had a senior moment.
Mike C.

[woodburner]

Cuninmp, you may find a local paint store that carries the window film used
inlieu of masking tape.  I have used grease as a covering to protect paint.
Good luck with your project, I have the barrel,lock, and wood to start a
Vincent.  It sits. Too many interests.    Tim

[cunninmp]

Tim,
Thanks for the idea.
I got the Aquafortis from Track of the Wolf. Downloaded their instructions and
low and behold, they say don't worry to much about inlays. So I'm thinking that
the Nitric Acid content is minimal if any ay all. To be on the safe side, I've removed all brass
and steel from the stock but the 4 pieces of Nickel Silver have to stay.
For those interested, this Vincent was built by "Larry Bryner" near Columbus, Ohio.
It's a .40 cal with a Green Mountain barrel, L & R Lock, Davis Set Triggers, and a
very nice curl in the wood. It's complete and in the white. His name is engraved
on the top of the barrel with some fancy scroll work. In doing some research on him, I
heard that in recent years he stamped the barrel with a number, but this one isn't. So I have
no idea when it might have been built.
Do any of you know Larry or have any info on him? I heard he was in an accident around 2009
or 2010, and he started doing this in the late 1960's, but that's all I know.
Mike C.
Groveland, CA

[tallbear]

Mike
I use aqua-Fortis exclusively as a gun stain.I never stain without all the metal parts on the gun.I find there is too much swelling of the wood around the inlets making reinstallation very time consuming.I stain and finish with all the metal parts installed.While I get some discoloration upon staining that is removed by the final polishing of the parts after finishing.If you are concerned with long term effects of the acid on your metal parts it is very easy to neutralize with house hold ammonia.

Mitch

[cunninmp]

Thanks Mitch,
Maybe I'll rethink my approach.
Mike C.

[tallbear]

Mike
Once you get something like this inlet you don't want to have to mess with it too much.


I just picked up this rifle from it's owner for the CLA show.After three years it shows no sign of discoloring or verdigris on any of the brass.I neutralized with house hold ammonia after staining with two costs of aqua-fortis.

Mitch

[cunninmp]

Mitch,
That is absolutely beautiful. What excellent work you do. Thanks so much for sharing.
I think I might now put some of the brass back in and I'll see what happens.
If a great builder like you can do it, then I guess I can try.
Wish I was closer to Dixons, but California is a bit to far to come look at your fine work.
Thanks so much for the suggestion.
Mike C.
Groveland, CA

[Mark Elliott]

If the AF was made properly,  there should be little or no acidity left to worry about.   Any tarnish on the non-ferrous metals will be very mild.   Just as Mitch said, I stain with everything in place.   Then I remove my iron mounts for their finishing.   For brass, silver, or German silver,  just handling them will polish them back up.   If you want to speed up the process, buff with a white scotch brite pad.   I also use that to buff the oil finish so it is perfectly safe.   When I do restoration work,  I have to wear gloves to keep from polishing off the patina just by handling.   Another way to gently remove the tarnish is use Ballistol.   It will take that tarnish/patina right off just by wiping.   Again,  you want to keep that stuff away from originals.   On brass and silver,  it is just like that Tarn-x stuff they used to advertise on TV.   

[Mark Elliott]

By the way Mitch,  that is some nice engraving on the that patchbox.

[cunninmp]

Mark, Where do you get your "White Scotch Brite". I have seen Grey, Red, and Green, but never white.
I'll look at some of the major supply houses like Enco and Travers.
Another great suggestion in the Ballistol. I use it on my fine trap guns but hadn't thought about it on brass.
I'll give that a try.
You guy's are a wealth of information. I learned a long time ago we never stop learning. I used to tell that to people
when I was in my thirties, and now at seventy I'm realizing it all over again.
Thanks so much to all of you for taking the time out of your busy days to reply to me.
Mike C.
Groveland, CA.
PS: I'm whiskering the Vincent  and hopefully in a few weeks can burn some powder and see what these
little .40 balls will do.

[Mark Elliott]

I don't actually buy the 3M Scotch Brite brand.   I buy the generic stuff at Lowes.  They have the gray, green, and white.    It works the same.   

[moleeyes36]

Mitch,

I've never tried neutralizing Aqua Fortis with household ammonia.  What's the process there?  For example: do you use it full strength, do you wet the wood thoroughly, do you rub it into the wood, and do you just let it air dry?

Don Richards

[tallbear]

Thanks Mark

Don
I stain with two coats of aqua fortis and while making my home brewed stain I make sure the acid is spent I still in most cases neutralize as part of my finishing process.It seems to work for me.I stain with two coats of aqua fortis blushing in between. Since I apply the stain generously the water in the stain raises the grain some.After blushing the second time I whisker the stock with Grey Sctoch brite pad #7448.This creates some dust that I want to remove before applying my seed lac sealer. I do this by wetting a rag with household ammonia and use the rag to remove all the dust left from the whiskering.Then I hang the stock outside to dry thoroughly before applying seedlac and whatever top coat I am using.

Mitch

[JDK]

When I was shopping around I found the best deal I could get on boxes of Scotch Brite pads was on Amazon.com.

Things may have changed, so it's worth looking around.  Enjoy, J.D.

[moleeyes36]

Mitch,

I have much more limited experience with Aqua Fortis having only recently started using it.  But have been so happy with the results that it's all I use on curly maple now.  I've never made my own, I've always used the commercial stuff from Wahkon Bay.  I don't know how spent the acid is in this product.  I basically use the same procedure you do except that I've never neutralized it with anything.  Before I tried AF the first time I did a lot of reading up on using it and it seems that some people neutralize it and some don't.  Being unfamiliar with using AF I wasn't sure which way to go as far as neutralizing was concerned.

Don

[tallbear]

Don
Wahkon Bays stain tends to be very acidic. I would certainly neutralize it unless you want the color to continue to darken.Some builders such as Hershal House want the finish to darken over time so he makes his aqua fortis very acidic. I usually don't wish the color too darken so I neutralize.I started doing this before I started making my own stain and was using Wahkon Bays stain.Even though I make my own now and I make sure it is not very acidic I still neutralize because it is part of my personal finishing process.

Mitch

[moleeyes36]

Mitch,

I thought maybe it was just my imagination, but the rifle I just finished a few months ago appeared to me to be a little darker than it was when I finished it.  I'll certainly neutralize the Wahkon Bay aqua fortis after I've stained the rifle I'm building now.  Thanks for the heads up. 

Don