Hodgdon buys out Goex

[Candle Snuffer]

Well it's no longer a rumor, it's confirmed;

http://www.cascity.com/?p=260

Maybe Hodgdon will get real black powder into the stores now and do away with the Pyro-@#$%/!! they call Pyrodex???

I don't know what will happen but I guess those of us who like using Goex will find out soon enough...

[roundball]

Got this email back from Hodgdon a few days ago:

============================================================
"As of January 2, 2009 Hodgdon Powder Company purchased GOEX. We intend to make no changes in the location of manufacture nor in the personnel who manufacture GOEX. As the largest share of the GOEX production goes to the military and commercial applications, we have great expectations that sales will continue strong and the sporting market will benefit from the volume being produced.
Rest assured, we want GOEX to go on for another hundred years."

New Customer Service Hours: 7:00 AM to 5:30 PM Central Time, Monday through Thursday. For help during any other time, please visit the Reloading Data Center at www.hodgdon.com

For a complete listing of all rifle, pistol and shotshell reloading recipes for Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester Smokeless Propellants, go to www.hodgdon.com and use the Reloading Data Center

Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Powder Company Family of Propellants:
Hodgdon Smokeless powders
Pyrodex Muzzleloading Propellants
Triple Seven Muzzleloading Propellants
IMR Smokeless Powders
Winchester Smokeless Powders
=============================================================

I'm hoping Hodgdon will be able to succeed with the work Goex started and get BP reclassified as a propellent...if they can, it should become readily available everywhere and help get more folks into traditional styled muzzleloading

[BPB]

Well it's no longer a rumor, it's confirmed;

http://www.cascity.com/?p=260

Maybe Hodgdon will get real black powder into the stores now and do away with the Pyro-@#$%/!! they call Pyrodex???

I don't know what will happen but I guess those of us who like using Goex will find out soon enough...

Don't expect to see Goex appear in stores unless the store owner is willing to apply for a federal explosives license to sell Goex=Black Powder.
 Then you have to have you local zoning approval to store BP, in an approved storage box or cabinet.
For the local gun shop just to get started and set up you're looking at I think $300.00 just for the ATF license.
 That is why you do not see Goex on shop or box store shelves.

 I've seen the town of Henrietta, NY.'s fire marshals not approve storage of smokeless powder in Gander Mountain.

 Licensing and sales in your local shop is up to the individual dealer,federal,state and local laws not the manufactur or distributor.

 Regards,
 BPB

[roundball]

And my point was that Goex had begun a formal campaign last year to try and get BP reclassified as a propellent instead of an explosive...(because it is NOT an explosive) and I hope Hodgdon continues that push and is successful.
If they are, then all the fed regs will disappear and BP will be no different than a store owner stocking a can of Hodgdon smokeless powder

[Candle Snuffer]

And my point was that Goex had begun a formal campaign last year to try and get BP reclassified as a propellent instead of an explosive...(because it is NOT an explosive) and I hope Hodgdon continues that push and is successful.
If they are, then all the fed regs will disappear and BP will be no different than a store owner stocking a can of Hodgdon smokeless powder

That's what I'm hoping will happen as well Roundball.  IMHO, I think Hodgdon stands a better chance of getting this done then Goex had while on their own.  It will be interesting to see if Hodgdon follows up on this, and they might?  Who knows, maybe Goex had some success in this area that we don't know about, but perhaps enough to make Hodgdon take note and purchase Goex with this in mind?

All speculation of course...

[William Worth]

In the mean time, I make it a point to ask dealers if they have any black powder (knowing full well they don't).  Because if we don't, they say that no one ever wants any or asks for it.  And it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy that it vanish.

[Daryl]

Right-on, William - and every time you go in the store - "have you got real black powder YET!"

[BrownBear]

In the mean time, I make it a point to ask dealers if they have any black powder (knowing full well they don't).  Because if we don't, they say that no one ever wants any or asks for it.  And it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy that it vanish.

Same here.  I also ask them for other traditional supplies.  It's one thing to be a nuisance though, and another to speak with your wallet.  I'm always careful to order a few supplies and accessories through local stores, even if I know I can get them cheaper online.   It's a case of putting my money where my mouth is.  If you don't buy the stuff locally, why in $#*! should they stock it?

[Harnic]

At this rate there will be a lot of nice workshops blown to bits by folks trying to make their own powder soon.... It's just not going to be available.  Smart move on Hodgdon's part though, the military market will be there for a long time & without the hassle of a civilian market, there's likely to be a fair profit involved in it's continued manufacture.  It seems the military doesn't have the same shipping regs when in comes to it's supplies & if it does, well the tax-payers will cover the extra charges.

[Mad Monk]

The military market has its ups and downs.
If we get out of Iraq there will be a descrease in military orders.
The attraction of the military orders is the amount of profit involved.  Before the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory ceased operations GOEX charged the military, and their contractors around $15 per pound for powder similar to what we use, just in different grain sizes.  Then when the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory ceased operations GOEX jumped the price of military powders up to $30 per pound.

There is more to this story that will be left unsaid for the moment.

E. Ogre

[burch]

If anyones lives near Orlando, Florida there`s a store called Buffalo Bills Shooting Store. They carry a lot of tradional supplies along with Goex, Elephant etc.  Their phone # ( 407 ) 896-6793

           Burch

[Candle Snuffer]

There is a bright side to all of this when one thinks about it.  Goex could have easily just closed their doors...  Then where would we have been?   So, at least the bright side is that they didn't.  They sold it to Hodgdon.

Now we have no way of knowing what Hodgdon's policy and pricing will be but at least we maintain a source & outlets to purchase black powder if we choose to.  This is important I feel. 

[swordmanjohn]

I wish they could reclassify it differently but black powder is and explossive.
If you take a can of modern smokeless powder and remove the cap and drop a match down it ...it ignites and shoots out a trail like a rocket wanting to take of. Do the same to bp and "boom" explosion.

[Candle Snuffer]

I wish they could reclassify it differently but black powder is and explossive.
If you take a can of modern smokeless powder and remove the cap and drop a match down it ...it ignites and shoots out a trail like a rocket wanting to take of. Do the same to bp and "boom" explosion.

I too wish they could get it reclassified.

Actually, when black powder is confined with even a small outlet for gasses to escape, it will act the same as a rocket burning fuel provided the container is sound.  A feller at our local Rendezvous found this out last year when a spark went down the brass nozzle of his "spring open" powder horn nozzle which did not close all the way after it's last usage.   It ignited the powder inside and looked like a blow torch while burning the guy's arm pretty bad.  Eventually, somewhere along the line of the burning powder the spout end of the horn was forced off.

Both smokeless and black powder create an explosion of gasses within the bore while at the same time pushing the bullet out.  If the bore is obstructed then the burning of both types of powder will not have an "adequate" vent which in return will force an explosion within the bore. 

However, in terms of modern cartridge firearms -vs- traditional muzzleloading firearms, it can be worse in cartridge firearms as these cartridges are locked into the breech,,, where as a  muzzle loading firearm still maintains a vent such as the "priming vent or nipple" and the black powder gasses will vent through these as well unless they become plugged.

I'm sure someone will come along and explain this better then I can.

[Daryl]

Sounds good to me.

[mykeal]

At this rate there will be a lot of nice workshops blown to bits by folks trying to make their own powder soon.... It's just not going to be available...

Why is that?

[Candle Snuffer]

I'm not speaking for Harry, but I believe his meaning to be that inexperience will play a big factor here, along with what has to be "Absolute Safety" in all aspects of powder making.  The slightest spark and BOOM!  May not happen, but what if your neighbor or a friend stops over while smoking a cigarette and doesn't know you're making powder, or may not comprehend the sign you put out on your workshop door,,, Danger - Do Not Enter...  Maybe a person only thought they locked their workshop door when in or out of it.  Anything can happen, we know this from the Goex Plant blowing up a couple times in past history.

Making powder is far more dangerous IMHO then using it.

[Mad Monk]

There is a bright side to all of this when one thinks about it.  Goex could have easily just closed their doors...  Then where would we have been?   So, at least the bright side is that they didn't.  They sold it to Hodgdon.

Now we have no way of knowing what Hodgdon's policy and pricing will be but at least we maintain a source & outlets to purchase black powder if we choose to.  This is important I feel. 

Simply shutting the plant down and using it as a tax write up simply was not in the picture.

It would take a bunch of pages in a book to explain why.
In 1995 GOEX had approached the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory asking if they would make most of GOEX's powder needs.  The Moosic plant would have been scaled back to produce only military powders with all other types being made for them in Brazil.
At that time GOEX was owned by an investment group that grew out of the bankruptcy of the old Pengo Industries which had grown out of the break up of Gearhart and Owens.
Then in Jan. of 2000 that investment group sold the business to another investment group out of New York city.
By 2002 GOEX sat down with reps from WANO in Germany.  Offered to sell the business to WANO.  I recall a roughly $8 million asking price which was a good bit more than the business was actually worth.  WANO declined.
Then GOEX asked WANO to make all of GOEX's powders in their plant in Germany.  WANO produces most the bp used by various European conutries military groups.  WANO declined that one also.

GOEX has been up for sale for a number of years.  But at least now it is no longer owned by a company with utterly no interest in the shooting sports.  Since Hodgdon is centered on the shooting sports it gives the future of GOEX a good bit more stability.  While there will no doubt be some changes in management I doubt there will be any great changes in the bp produced.  GOEX's various small-arms BP types gives them a good coverage of all of the aspects of black powder shooting.  Gone are the days when one type of black powder is used in all of the bp guns in use.  There simply is not a great need for any changes in powder types.

E. Ogre

[Harnic]

Thanks Joe, that pretty much says what I meant.  Making powder is dangerous under educated, controlled conditions, which are unlikely in a home setting.  There will be accidents because of this trend toward making bp less available & more expensive because we all love our sport too much to stop shooting because some idiot in government decided a terrorist MIGHT use black powder illegally.

[Candle Snuffer]

You're welcome Harry.

To be honest, I would like to try and make black powder someday but I know that I simply do not have the proper area to set something like this up, even on a small scale of even one pound.

Now I have heard of some clubs (and I don't know who they are) getting together at times and making powder and I'm sure they have done their research and have complied with just about all the safety aspects a venture like this needs.  I do stress the research not only in powder making but safe powder making as well 'cause I'm sure it can be rewarding, and as Harry has said, we may someday come to this for the love of our shooting sport, and I would also expect a fair number of accidents should we have to take this road.   

[Harnic]

I agree Joe, making powder would complete the entire project for those of us who have built our own rifles, cast our on balls, knapped flints, & make our own patches & lubes.  It would give another level or satisfaction to the game.  That was my intent in 1983 when I had my gunsmith shop in the historic village of Ft. Langley BC, Canada.  I asked the federal explosives inspector when he dropped by to check my powder storage.  At first he said making black powder was illegal, but when I described my hobby & assured him I would not offer the powder for sale, I just wanted to enjoy having made everything involved in my hobby, he told me there was a provision for experimenting that would cover my needs perfectly.  With his assurance I was allowed to make my own, I bought a small quantity of sulphur & salt peter, made a batch of Alder charcoal, & set to experimenting.  Over the next few weeks the results were quite promising with several small batches working very well.  About 3 months after his visit I received a registered letter containing a "Cease & Desist" order from the supreme court so that was the end of my powder making.  I'm sure that given our current level of paranoia about terrorists that law is more applicable than ever.  I know how to make it & know it works well, but would rather not run afoul of our very misguided laws.  I suspect the focus is less on gun control per se & more on banning explosives & components which will by default make firearms illegal.  Cynical?  Maybe, but experience is the best teacher & I have learned never to trust the bureaucracy (government).

[Candle Snuffer]

That was pretty rotten of the powers that be to pull the rug out from under you Harry, on your powder making once they offered up the channels you had to go through and you was given the go ahead to do so.

I certainly agree that the more we can do to bring us full circle with our muzzle loading is always rewarding.  Making our own powder would certainly be the crowning achievement I feel.  I believe it would be much of the same satisfaction we get when we complete a build of nice ol' muzzle loader that fits like a glove and shoots like a dream come true.  I certainly understand what you're saying.

[Brian]

I'm a little to chicken to try and make my own.   

What I'd like to know is a realistic time frame that decent powder such as GOEX could be expected to last if properly stored.  A year?  Five years?  Ten years?   

[roundball]

if properly stored

Basically forever

[roundball]

"...I received a registered letter containing a "Cease & Desist" order from the supreme court..."

Kind of ridiculous when you consider you can buy all the bags of fertilizer and gallons of kerosene that you want