Info on strange lock

[doug]

     I ran accross this lock on another forum and am posting it here because I have never seen anything like it before.  The outside sear and the base of the cock/hammer appear to be replacements but it is my presumption that they are replacing/duplicating the original components.  Also worth noting that the outer sear functions only on the 1/2 cock and the only rational I can think of for it is that it is some sort of partial safety in case the nose of the inner sear broke off.  It also does not make sense to me that the outer sear would be added unless there was one there originally

    Anyway, I would welcome the thoughts of others on the lock.

[PGosnell]

I'll venture a guess.

late 17th century Dutch. marine lock,  With Schimay, being an earlier variation on the Dutch Belgic name Chimay.

but that's just a guess

[rich pierce]

Spectacular.  What is the size of this lock?  I bet the frizzen is wide, wide, wide.  Can you show us or tell us more of the gun?

[PGosnell]

yes, definitely an interesting lock.

[smart dog]

Hi Doug,
Very nice old lock.  I am sure it dates from the third quarter of the 17th century.  Perhaps it is Dutch. It is certainly a style also made in England. The catch is a safety that functions the same as the dog on a doglock.  It was often used on pocket pistols that had no triggerguards (as you can understand).  But it was also used on larger guns with guards.  It prevents you from firing the gun at half cock even if you apply tremendous finger pressure on the trigger.  My guess is that bridleless locks wore quickly and the fit of the internal parts probably became sloppy after a time.  The safety catch may have been a necessary safety device.   

dave

[Dave B]

I found a blunderbuss in the Dutch fireams book by Arne Hoff, with a almost identical flintlock configuration as this lock you've posted. The safety catch is in the same possition as yours and the cock has the same exact profile. I had not seen a dog engauge from under the cock like this other than on a Miqulet lock I had. I agree with the Dutch connection.

[doug]

      I guess I didn't look close enough; I had thought that the "dog" was mounted on the sear shaft but I see it is actually below the sear pivot.  Must be some sort of friction component because otherwise the dog would drop down
     I am hoping to trade for the gun but not sure what I want to part with in order to make the trade and also not sure just what value I put on the gun to start with which obviously determines what I am prepared to trade for the gun.  The gun is a full stock smoothbore although I am not sure of the bore diameter.

cheers Doug

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Doug, from what you have shown us, the gun is in remarkable condition - it's age notwithstanding.  Unless you already have a stable full of 17th century stuff in working condition, you must have it!

[Levy]

I agree with everyone's assessment that it is a safety dog that simply operates on the bottom side of the cock.  the advantage is that when the cock is pulled back to full bent, the dog simply drops out of the notch and you don't have to manually remove it.  I worked on a brass barreled blunderbuss that was recovered from the Henrietta Marie (a slaver ca. 1700) that had the same type of safety on it and it was English with a G*T marking above the proofmarks.  I don't think this type of dog safety is nearly as common as the other type which I have seen from shipwrecks many times.

James Levy

[doug]

Doug, from what you have shown us, the gun is in remarkable condition - it's age notwithstanding.  Unless you already have a stable full of 17th century stuff in working condition, you must have it!

     the question is not "do I have to have it" but what do I have to part with to get it.  The fellow does not want to sell --- only to trade.  The agony of decisions :>)  :>)

    A thought did occur to me; on the unaltered guns, did the dog engage slightly after the 1/2 cock and into a deep hooked notch?  That would make more sense that the current configuration of the lock above.  It would leave the dog under tension, when engaged.

cheers Doug

[keweenaw]

On this lock the dog has to be under tension to stay engaged.  On a traditional dog lock the lock need not be and probably shouldn't be under tension.

There are later locks with gravitational safeties on them that block the cock from falling when the gun is pointed near vertical like it is when being loaded.  This was in important consideration because the practice was to charge the pan before loading the barrel but plays havoc with overhead shots!

Tom

[Robin Hewitt]

Something's not right and I'm not sure what it is.  Perhaps the lock tail and face don't go with 3 cross pins, maybe the threads look wrong, why has it got a dog catch and half cock, why aren't I seeing 300 years shrinkage where the back pin goes through? Why can't I find him in Stockel?

If I'd bought it I would pull that pan screw with trepidation, suppose it was UNF? 

First thing I'd do is run my finger down the guns belly and feel  for overhang on the butt plate, should be a good 1/8" 

[Daryl]

Interesting observations, Robin.