Author Topic: another auqua fortis ??  (Read 10468 times)

Offline alex e.

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another auqua fortis ??
« on: August 04, 2013, 08:46:59 PM »
I just bought some of TOW's AF solution for a future project. i read thier directions and they say not to nuetralize it after application. Just apply finish.I know the right finish will seal things properly.But this has me thinking after having read things to the contrary. So now i'm confused ???   
What say the  more versed in the method of staining?
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 09:32:57 PM »
If the acid used to make the aqua fortis solution is spent (i.e. the pH ends up more or less neutral) then there is no reason to neutralize. I presume therefore that the TOW aqua fortis is neutral.......
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 09:53:21 PM by Robert Wolfe »
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Offline tallbear

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 10:00:11 PM »
Alex
Here's what I can tell you with the caveat that it's been awhile since I purchased any Aqua Fortis stain from TOW.Any stain that I purchased from TOW made from William Youngs formula was very acidic and would continue to darken over time with out neutralizing.Some builders have no problem with this and find it desirable.

That is not to say whoever is making the stain for TOW now  isn't being more careful about residual acidity , so it would be impossible to say with out running some tests.One easy test would be try adding a little more iron to TOWs stain and see if you get a reaction.

Personally I see no downside to neutralizing if you're worried about it,but others are of a different opinion which is fine.

Mitch
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 10:19:40 PM by aka tallbear »

necchi

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 11:26:55 PM »
I'm with Tallbear, dismiss TOW's instruction/advice and neutralize after the AF.
It's not a difficult thing to do and causes no undo damage or problems.
I use household ammonia followed by a tap water rinse and patting dry with towels

p.s. I say this with the expectation that the subject wood was properly whiskered prior to the AF.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 12:57:40 AM »
You don't NEED to neutralize, but I don't care how spent the acid is, it will darken over time if you don't.  I don't think there is an AF solution on this planet that is a neutral pH.  The level of residual acidity will determine how much it continues to darken and how much it rusts the underside of your barrel.
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 01:11:13 AM »
I've experimented with Track's aquafortis and Whakon Bay, both will readily dissolve additional iron if added.  I've actually dilluted with water and added more iron to Whakon Bay stuff to get a more pleasing color (to my eye).  I still neutralize.  Neutralizing will sometimes remove the reddish hues that come with Aquafortis, but the whole stock will get a lot darker if not done. 
-Eric

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Offline JDK

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 01:36:41 AM »
If in doubt and you need peace of mind, pH test strips are cheap and will tell you in seconds whether what you have is acid, neutral or base.

You can get a pack of 2 packs 80 on amazon.com for $2.56:  http://www.amazon.com/Packs-Paper-Litmus-Strips-Tester/dp/B008IBOG7G/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1375655337&sr=8-5&keywords=ph+test+strips

Enjoy, J.D.
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Offline alex e.

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 03:09:09 AM »
Guys,thanks for the good replies.you all make good points. Next question: What did they do 200+ years ago?[as in nuetralise or not]
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necchi

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 05:43:51 AM »
Consider that Lye was readily made and a basic component of many soaps, it's not like basic alchemy was unknown. It may not have been understood by many as we understand chemistry today, but trial and error with components where the norm and passed down from each generation.

snowdragon

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 12:33:09 AM »
I use baking soda to neutralize Track's aqua, and I usually hear a slight sizzle, and I can see the soda fizzing a little. That tells me it's still acidic on the wood, which also tells me it has the potential to darken in the next couple of months.

The very first time I used aqua fortis, it was Track's brand. I didn't know you were supposed to neutralize it, and it did turn too dark after about a month. Beautiful striped maple, but the stripes hardly show. I'll redo it one of these days.

One thing about neutralizing, even if it's not needed, it doesn't hurt to do it. It's not like it's going to take way the color, or lighten the shade. I think, when in doubt, neutralize. Bill

oldarcher

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 01:37:44 PM »
I am wondering what you folks use to neutralize the Aqua Fortis? Baking soda, Ammonia???
I think that the procedure to finish a stock would be: whisker at least twice, apply Aqua Fortis like you would alcohol based stain, one or more applications, apply heat with a heat gun until the color is pleasing, then neutralize with ????, then wipe with a very damp cloth and whisker again with steel wool. Use an alcohol based stain if necessary to achieve the desired color. Am I missing something??
Thanks for the advice.

Offline tallbear

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 04:09:05 PM »
archer
I whisker before ,during and after carving.I stain with two coats of Nitrate of Iron stain blushing between each coat.After final blushing I whisker again then neutralize with house hold ammonia ,using it to remove the dust from the final whiskering.Ammonia won't raise the grain much.Then I use  spit coat of seedlac and finish with what ever top coat I am using.

Mitch

Offline Darrin McDonal

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 04:45:49 PM »
If you are going to the CLA show, I will have a decent supply of my aqua fortis ( and Sheetz rifle build DVDs) for sale in 2 oz bottles with instructions and examples. Feel free to stop by and ask anything.
Darrin
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 08:38:15 PM »
Guys,thanks for the good replies.you all make good points. Next question: What did they do 200+ years ago?[as in nuetralise or not]

They did not have to neutralize if you go by the method described by Calvin Hetrick when he observed one old gunsmith doing it.

The gunsmith reacted the iron in the diluted nitric acid until the acid was almost totally "spent".  Observed when the bubbling ceases in the mixture as it is made.  The stain solution (ferric nitrate in spent acid) was applied to the stock.  The stock then being GENTLY heated over the forge fire.  If you heat a ferric nitrate (nitrate of iron) solution above 150 degrees F it will break down giving off the lower oxides of nitrogen.  This may be smelled as the stock is being heated.  While traces may remain the wood after heating, most of the flashed off lower oxides of nitrogen cannot reform with water to form nitric acid within the wood.

A simple baking soda solution will kill off any traces of the acid or lower oxides of nitrogen in the wood.

As pointed out.  True nitrate of iron stain may, or may not, darken considerably with aging.  Depends on the concentration of iron in the stain solution applied.  An "iron rich" solution will darken considerably within about a 10 year period after the stock is stained.  An iron weak solution will not darken nearly as much.  Most of the darkening is the result of a slow reaction with any tannic acid in the wood.  Some stocks may contain fairly high levels of tannic acid while others have very little.

I would point out that sometimes this slow darkening reaction will bring out curl that was unseen in the stock blank.  My test rifle from 1984 was a second that I got cheap.  Only a little curl showed.  Now it shows all kind of curl and the curl is an intense black color.  The so called curl picks up greater amounts of the iron stain, during staining, compared to the areas where the grain is parallel to the surface of the stock.

When gently heating the stock, after staining, and what and how much caustic you use will alter colors with the nitrate of iron stain.


Beware of some of the commercial stains based on one or more acids with "iron added for color".  These stains depend on heat to chemically char the wood's surface to produce the color.  These MUST be neutralized.  One was a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids with a small amount of iron added.  When you use a live acid and heat to color the wood it may well come back and haunt you later on.  The acid(s) get locked in the wood under a finish.  They then migrate through the wood and attack metal parts on the gun.  As Chuck Dixon once commented, he never saw an original with finish in the lock mortise or in the barrel channel and none had corrosion problems. 

Offline James Rogers

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 09:03:49 PM »
Thanks for that information Mad Monk.
I had a maple stocked rifle here at the house last month that was made by Jim Hash over 20 years ago. It is pictured in Three Centuries of Tradition. That piece was done with 43 percent solution nitric diluted 5:1. No iron or metal was used in it at all. It still looks today just as it is pictured in the book. No baking soda or ammonia used at all.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:04:28 PM by James Rogers »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 09:39:57 PM »
A possibly naive question regarding darkening of some AQF-stained stocks over time:  is it clear to everyone that the stained wood is darkening and not the varnish?  We have all seen old guns with golden highlights in areas where the varnish is worn off.  I suppose it is possible these guns are worn below the depth of staining.  Anyone's thoughts?
Andover, Vermont

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 09:51:53 PM »
You might be on to something profound Rich.  I find, when I burnish the wood after staining with AF, that is is very difficult to cut below the stain into lighter wood.  So those worn areas on old rifles may be a loss of darkened varnish rather than worn through AF stain.
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 10:23:39 PM »
A possibly naive question regarding darkening of some AQF-stained stocks over time:  is it clear to everyone that the stained wood is darkening and not the varnish?  We have all seen old guns with golden highlights in areas where the varnish is worn off.  I suppose it is possible these guns are worn below the depth of staining.  Anyone's thoughts?

One of the things with wood aging is that light woods tend to age dark while dark woods age light.  Not 100% but a general rule of thumb.

I have seen originals at Dixons where both the finish and the stained surface are worn away where the gun was held.  How deeply the stain goes into the wood depends a lot on how dense and hard the wood is.

If you look at technical writings on woods they comment that roughly 80% of the moisture a wood picks up is picked up on end grain.  Only about 20% of the total moisture content is picked up across the grain.  If you look at a piece of wood, prepared with a sharp scraper, under a microscope it appears as if the wood had been made by gluing a bunch of soda straws together.  So most of the water transmission is "with the grain" rather than across the grain.  In stock staining.  Very little stain actually penetrates into the wood where the grain is parallel to the surface.  So the stain simply forms a thin film on the very top of the wood.  Easily worn away by abrasion.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 11:18:49 PM »
Could be that in many cases, such as where we see a stock worn through the ramrod channel, etc, that this is well below the depth of stain.  But most would agree that varnishes do oxidize and darken over time?  And it's possible that remaining acid could hasten this or push it further? I have seen plenty of stocks worn in the wrist and along the forearm where they were all bare wood light in color next to completely opaque, almost black varnish that obscured the grain.

Possibly a little of both darkening of the stain in the wood and the varnish in and above the wood?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2013, 04:05:58 AM »
The varnishes used on the old original rifles were a mixture of boiled oil and various natural resins.  The boiled oil having been prepared with lead as the dryer metal.  The actual amount of lead per given amount of oil could vary a good deal between gunsmiths and batches of boiled oil.
When you subject a lead boiled oil to sulfur in the form of a gas.  Sulfur dioxide or hydrogen sulfide.  There will be a reaction between the lead particles in the dry oil (or varnish) and the sulfur gas(s) creating lead sulfide.  Which is black in color.  It is a long involved technical explanation in this.  The "spent" dryer lead ends up on the surface of the dry oil film (or varnish film).  If you look at some old rifles with the black surface "patina" you see where it was commonly handled by the lack of the black patina.  You may still have varnish there.  Just the surface that had lead dryer in it is gone.

Years ago I had looked at a real nice Lehigh Valley rifle with a very nice varnish on it.  There was a thumbnail size chip out of it.  The varnish film was very thin.  Many were only one or two coats of varnish in very thin coats.

Some rifles built from the mid-1700's through the 1800's had stocks sealed with shellac before varnishing.  Raw lac is seen as red flakes or beads.  Most lac sold back then had the red color removed.  Highly prized as a dye.  So most of the shellac was orange shellac.  When you dissolved it in grain alcohol you had to run the solution through a filter cloth to remove the alcohol insoluble was.  When you used this orange de-waxed shellac as sealer you added some of the orange color to the stock.  How much of that orange color showed on the finished rifle depended on how much color the stain had given the wood.  With a dark stain the orange color was simply lost.


Some old varnishes did darken or even change color with long periods of aging.  In part due to a darkening of the basic lead boiled oil.  If the varnish was the common varnish of Europe, boiled oil and sandarac resin you would see some darkening and the varnish might even begin to look red.  I had a batch of boiled oil and sandarac resin do that in about 10 years.  The boiled oil and sandarac varnish goes back to the days of cross-bows according to one old Italian source on the subject.

But generally there will be some darkening of the varnish is the varnish was based on a lead boiled oil.  The extreme of this darkening is what is seen in the black patina on the surfaces of the stock's varnish.

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2013, 05:51:52 AM »
Not to steal your thread Alex but i had a question for Mad Monk pertaining to his comment on Tannic Acid. If one was to use a mild tannic acid solution on the stock prior to using ferric nitrate would it help to darken the curl on a maple stock?

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: another auqua fortis ??
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2013, 06:26:05 AM »
Not to steal your thread Alex but i had a question for Mad Monk pertaining to his comment on Tannic Acid. If one was to use a mild tannic acid solution on the stock prior to using ferric nitrate would it help to darken the curl on a maple stock?

I had played with that on test slabs of curly maple wood.  Results bad!  The problem comes in with the tannic acid getting into the "ticks" in the wood where the grain is running parallel to the surface.When stained the curl quickly gets the desired jet-black color.  Then the little grain direction "ticks" really stand out in plain sight.  Something I never saw on an original.  You would have to treat the stock with the tannic acid solution before you take the wood down to the final level.  Simply to insure that there would be little to no extra tannic acid in that parallel grain.

If you were to go over the wood with the tannic acid solution just before applying the iron stain the slab ends up looking like curly maple charcoal.