Quandary ?

[Captchee]

 Now this may sound odd but here it goes .
Some background on this
  I have a young man who is apprenticing  his  rifle .
  Since I have a fair amount of parts setting around  I told him  he could use any of those parts he wanted .
 But first he needed to  come up with a design that he wanted and that we would go from there .
Well  last week he shows up with photos of  an English sporting rifle built by Ron.
Specifically this one
http://www.recreatinghistory.com/?portfolio=english-sporting-rifle

 Putting aside anyone opinions on the gun , its historical contexts , pro or cons …..
 I said ok .
 The next thing I know he is standing  with a barrel and parts as well as a number  from one of the large planks of black walnut I have stored ..  Lets say for a novice , he sure knows how to find  the most expensive  board  out there .
 So im walking him through  drawing this gun up and doing the layout  when he comes up with an old  left hand  early English lock .that he had dug up from a box I guess I had forgotten about .
 IE the same one Ron used.
 So im explaining  that Rons rifle is built for a left hand shooter  and that since he is a right hand shooter , he needs to find a  right hand lock .
 Next came his honest question ; why ?
 He then explains he has been shooting a left handed flintlock for some time and doesn’t see why he cant  put a left hand lock on a right hand gun .
 Im standing there going ahhhhhhhh because !
And yes I almost said because I said so .
 But after thinking about this some , I really cant come up with a good reasoning past the flash issues , which he doesn’t  have an issue with  OR the  fact that  right handed guns have the lock placed on the right hand side as a mater of practice .
 I even went so far as to show him how  the lock would be in the way when he sights with both eyes open . But he  sights with his left eye closed . that’s the way his father taught him to shoot and frankly he is a real good shot .
  So  im rather  stumped as to a reasonable  explanation and am looking for some opinions   please 

[T.C.Albert]

re-sale value? Less market for lefty guns if he ever wants to trade or sell it.
Bad reason, but its all I can think of.
tca

[rich pierce]

Apprentices are not supposed to be stubborn.  I think your key a tough one to help and it might be a rough patch of road ahead.  I would explain to him that we work within some norms and though creative, don't strive for weird.

[Kermit]

Perhaps a discussion of the value of tradition? First you learn to do it the way it WAS done, and as you come to understand how the "old ways" work, you might come up with a change or tweek that makes sense, and you try it. You're the teacher. Sometimes the answer is "Because that's the way I do it."

[JDK]

This won't help your case at all, but the Landis Valley Museum had at least two Lancaster rifles on display at their recent exhibit that were set up for a right handed shooter but had locks on the left side.  They are both in the book on the exhibit and I'm at work and the book is at home, but I.I.R.C., they were both by different hands.

I don't remember his source, but the author put forth the theory that they may have been built so that the vent and flash were more hidden from the shooters open right eye.

If two were built and survived, how many were made???  Could this have caught on if left hand locks were more available???  Who knows?

Enjoy, J.D.

[T*O*F]

The deal killer is the cheekpiece.  If he really wants to build that gun, then build it with NO cheekpiece.  A left-handed gun with a cheekpiece on the wrong side just wouldn't cut it on an English rifle.

[JDK]

I agree that the gun would be more appealing sans cheek piece.

I wasn't suggesting that he build it as these Lancasters were, or even inform his "apprentice" that such rifles exist, just putting the information out there.

But, as far as I'm concerned, using black walnut on an "English" rifle would already be a deal breaker, so if he wants to take further artistic license, so be it.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Chris Treichel]

I thought apprentices were supposed to sweep the floor, not ask questions and be happy when you allow them to polish brass or do one thing at a time.

As to the question...target rifles with backwards locks on the right side... like B on this site http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/52/lid/217

[Jerry V Lape]

I think the left hand lock and right hand shooter presents a bit of a safety issue when cocking  the lock with the right hand.  Greater chance of the thumb slipping off the hammer if the rifle is being cocked properly with the butt already on the shoulder or close to it.  This is particularly more likely if the shooter's hands are on the smaller side as mine are.  I have to be very careful cocking the left hand lock on double guns and find myself cocking the gun without full control of the wrist as a result. 

[frogwalking]

I would go back to the expensive walnut plank.  My apprentice would have to use a plain piece of wood, until he has proven his ability tio turn it into a nice stock.  Then, I would consider selling him a fancy piece.  It is easier to do really fine work on a plain piece of wood than on one with curvy grain.   The intent at this time is to teach him  how to do that, not provide him the material to make an expensive rifle. 

[Lucky R A]

Hi Captchee,
      Tell the youngster that Ron said don't do that.....The above reasons not to build a right handed gun w/ a left hand lock are all good.   Chose an appropriate right hand lock keep it simple and do the best that you can, fancy will come later. 
       You are the master and this is a learning experience.  We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up.    I built a whole lot of guns before I built the gun he is admiring.  I had that nice piece of walnut around for a lot of years waiting for the right time to use it.   I have now built over 250 guns and usually built 12-15 new guns a year---I still make mistakes---but not as many as on the first gun...  Your young man will learn as much from his mistakes as from his successes.  Go slow and understand what you are doing before doing it.   

Best wishes on the project

Ron Luckenbilll
       

[Captchee]

 Thanks for the replies folks .
  How should I put this ?
 When I instruct someone how to build a gun , I don’t  really want them to try and copy  someone  else’s work .  Rather I want them to picture in their minds what  their rifle would be  and then apply learned principles to the application .
So in other words he isn’t recreating  unless that’s what they want to do . Instead I want them to create .
As such  having a very nice piece of wood , even though wrong for the gun , isn’t a big issue with me . And factually I find it much easier to  work on a very nice hard piece of wood then a  punky soft piece .   
 So  on one had , his choice of wood , showed to me he was thinking  and it gave me a chance to set back and ask why he chose what he did . Explain the complication he would run into  . Plus he is going to learn first hand how to read  the wood itself .
 So in fact his choice of wood is my fault  as I instructed him in what to look for  and he did just what I instructed him to do .
  I also what them to ask questions . I expect it . Also  I expect an explanation as to  what they are thinking  before they do something .   In other words I instruct  how to do a given step . When that step is done I ask they to think about what the next step should be  and why they think  it should be next . When its wrong and it most always is , I then can explain whats next , why its next  and what happens if its not next  in the process .
 In return however I expect to be able to give them  a reasonable answer to their questions  . I have just never had someone ask why they could not use a left hand lock on a right handed gun .

Frankly as I said before , the only thing I could come up with was ; BECOUSE !!!
 Which frankly isn’t an answer  and since JDK brought up these  right hand left locked  Lancaster’s I would very much be a fool for saying it wasn’t done . Especially since until now I didn’t know it even was done .
For the life of me  I don’t know an answer at to why  he shouldn’t do it , without   feeling like im going back on  my whole  belief  of instruction .
 Its really an odd thing , in 30+ years of doing this , I have never  ran into this situation .
 The man is very talented and I have no doubt that he will turn out a very attractive piece of work .  I just don’t like not having a reasonable answer

[Captchee]

thanks for the reply Ron .
 I would  agree with you 100%
 However  my real quandary is  I guess the part about  understanding what your doing before doing it  since frankly I cant come up with any real reason why he cant use a left hand lock  other then I think it would be the dumbest thing since a pet rock .  Obviously I can say NO  . however that doesn’t change the fact that im saying no with out a real  solid reason

[bob in the woods]

We are creating something which has every potential to last far beyond our own lifetime. It is a tool as well as a work of art.  I don't know of anyone else who would use that rifle comfortably .  He is basically building a one man gun.   Why not build a  hay wagon with    8 inch wheels, just because you have them on hand ?  Why not mount the butt plate upside down, or the reverse the trigger guard orientation ?  Maybe he wouldn't mind that either.
Does he want to learn from you, or just build himself a gun ?   
I have all the patience in the world for my work, but you obviously have more for people than I do !
That's why I don't have and never have had an " apprentice "   

[Captchee]

 i dont think i would be  the one to ask about building a hay wagon lol .
 but since i see folks on  taking trips on the Oregon trail  in wagons with car tiers lol .

 but again in all seriousness  bob , again i cant disagree .
 but frankly why would this be a one man gun ?

what is exactly the reason we put locks on the right vs the left .
 yes i know , because thats how it was done .
 the answer im looking for is why was it done that way .
 My SXS is a right hand double flintlock .  I have no issue with the left hand lock distracting me when its firing .  Never hand an issue with spark , flame or anything else . Even cocking and priming isn’t an issue
 Im right handed and shot many a left hand flintlock  rifle , never had an issue .  In fact im almost of the opinion that a lot of left hand shooters , besides  having the cheek piece on the wrong side , see the flame from the lock because they look for it .

 So while I would agree with  each and every one here , I cannot honestly figure out why the lock needs to be on the right side for a right hand shooter  other then that’s what was commonly established .

Which is I think the answer I must give him . As frankly I  cant find a reason other then ease of cocking  that it would need to be there

[flehto]

I agree w/ Rich. An apprentice doesn't tell the journeyman what to do. I served a 5 year  tool and diemaker apprenticeship w/ some crabby diemakers  and humilty is the one trait that opens the door to a journeyman's  knowledge.  This situation could get very interesting in the near future......Good luck.....Fred

[Acer Saccharum]

Tell him how you can help him.

If this includes putting a LH lock on a RH gun, then where is your quandary?


If it sticks in your craw to build it this way, then where is your quandary?


It sounds like you need to figure out where YOU are before you can begin to help the apprentice out.

[Scott Bumpus]

Some people hear their inner voice with great clarity and live by what they hear.  These people become crazy or they become legends.  One Stab        Nurture this man and see what happens.

[Vomitus]

    I'd sweep many a builders floor on here!

[Acer Saccharum]

    I'd sweep many a builders floor on here!

Me too.

This is a learning process for all of us.

Sometimes I teach, but what I'm really doing is learning from my students. In the apprentice/journeyman/ relationship everyone is learning.

[bedbugbilly]

First off . . . my opinion is absolutely worthless but I do have a couple of things to say in regards to the LH firearm and shooting it RH.

As a former shop teacher . . . I ran across such students many times in regards to furniture making . . . in the end, most, not all, discovered "why" after I let them do it their way.  We all learn by our mistakes.

In regards to firearms . . . due to eye problems as a result of diabetes, I can no longer shoot RH . . I have to shoot LH as the central vision is not good enough to aim in the right eye.  I have no problem shooting LH with a RH lock.  But . . . most of us are not "ambi dexterous".  I've been right handed my entire life and it just seems "backwards" to me in regards to priming a flintier or capping a sidelock percussion.  I end up doing it right handed and then switching the gun in my hands to shoot LH.  It works though and I can still shoot.  But . . . it "just ain't natural" for me.

There is always a market for LH rifles/fowlers . . . just not as great as RH ones though.  I have tried several LH flitters . . . . again, I'm so used to priming right handed, etc. that it bugs me trying to do a LH lock.  

You are the "Master" and he is the "Apprentice".  You have a "relationship" with the boy that you have to maintain as well and you certainly don't want to quash his creativity . . . or interest.  I know the price of parts but perhaps with the enticement of letting him build his first one as a "simpler" design to help him learn and develop his skills . . . then dangle the carrot that if he does well and he gets his building skills down, he can make the LH lock RH rifle?  If it is his "first gun" . . . like any other trade . . . you don't start out to learn your skills by attempting a difficult "build".  There are plenty of basics to get down first . . . barrel inletting, ramrod hole drilling, inletting, drilling and tapping, etc. as well as learning the proper use of all of the tools involved.  Only you know what his capabilities are at this point . . . perhaps he is ready for something a little more difficult such as the gun you describe . . . or perhaps he should be starting out with a more simple design such as a "plainer" mountain rifle?

And I will end this worthless opinion by saying that every so often, I had a student who would surprise me as they progressed in their work . . . some had "natural skills" and their work was excellent.  Good luck in your quandary and let us know how it is going.  I for one would love to see photos of his project as it progresses.  

[Acer Saccharum]

I like what you said, bedbug.

My rambling thoughts, take them or leave them, on the apprenticeship:

If this is the lad's first gun, or second, it is unlikely that he will be building a masterpiece. He need not worry about making the gun for posterity to enjoy, but to learn what it takes to bring the project to a finish. I would not start him off with your best wood, nor a match grade barrel for a first gun. He's got too much learning to do.

However, there is great value in giving him your opinion about how the gun should be constructed. He needs to know historical precedent and context. What others have done before him.

There is also value in letting him build it his way, too. He need to express himself, explore his ideas, and bring them into three dimensions. He needs to make mistakes, and by golly he will, and he needs to learn how to fix them.

Your job will be one of the tugboat master, trying to steer a loaded barge downriver. A little nudge here and there will keep him from hitting the rocks. But every now and then, he'll run into a snag. Your experience will be there to help him out of his pickle.

As I said before, this may be no masterpiece, but it will be something he can be proud of. Hopefully he will acquire a taste for history and art as you lead him through the different phases of the build. If the bug has bitten him, he will want to build another, and another...

...and end up with a shop full of parts and wood. And Dixon's to go to, and the CLA to attend, etc.

[Kermit]

I guess you could really warp the discussion by bringing up those target flinters that use a left-handed lock on the right side, cock forward, falling back, frizzen aft. Seem to recall something about the direction of fall not throwing things off target. Somebody here knows. Maybe he should go with that method of using a lefty lock on a righty rifle. It even puts the frizzen between the shooter and the flash.

[Captchee]

 ok let me be clear here . he isnt telling me what to do  or what he will do for that mater .
 nor is this my first apprentice.
  The simple mater is that he ask me a question that I could not  in do faith , give a satisfactory answer  to . It was an honest question and IMO deserves an honest and correct answer .
An answer that  would seem  none of us  seem to know  as the  answers have ranged from basically because  to who would buy it .
 Not once did I say I was going to let him  use the left hand lock . The fact  of the mater is that im not .
 What  really sticks im my craw though is I don’t have a real good reason as to why not  past  I don’t think it should be .
Frankly though after  the information some of you have provided  im going to have to do some research into these right hand guns with left hand locks . As I said , I wasn’t a wear of them .

[Lucky R A]

Capt,
     The most obvious reason is because the correct sided lock right or left, directs the vent fire away from the face & eyes instead of across 2/3 of your face.  The same with a percussion lock in that cap fragments etc. are far less likely to hit the face and or eyes.   Yes we can learn to concentrate on the sights to the extent that we do not notice the flame of ignition.  The danger is there none the less and presents a higher percentage of danger.  Today most of us wear some type of reading or shooting glasses (or should) when shooting, thus we have a degree of protection that was not readily available when longrifles were the norm.   A solid reason better than "because".   

Ron