Author Topic: vinagroon  (Read 7273 times)

woodburner

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vinagroon
« on: August 14, 2013, 04:16:57 AM »
Gentlemen, although it exposes my ignorance, could someone kindly give an
explaination of what "vinagroon" is?  I tried a search.  Thanks, Tim  ::)

Offline okawbow

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 04:22:32 AM »
A vinagarroon is an arachnid.


 Vinegaroon's are not spiders. They are related to spiders and belong to the class Arachnida, but have their own order called: Thelyphonida. (Spiders are in the order Aranaeae).



 Thelyphonida is made up of the vinegaroon's [also commonly know as the "whip scorpion" because of their whip like tail, and pincers in the front that resemble their relative, the scorpion.] They are not poisonous animals, so while a bite might pinch a bit, it is not deadly. It is a myth that if you are bitten by a vinegaroon everything will taste like vinegar.



 Vingaroons get their name from their unusual defense mechanism when they are disturbed. Vinegaroons have glands around the end of their abdomen that can spray a combination of acetic acid and octanoic acid. This combination of acids gives off the "vinegar" odor when sprayed.

I don't know of any other definition foe the word.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 04:51:28 AM »
I've heard vinegaroon's a stain made for blackening leather. Vinegar with dissolved iron filings in it.

I've used it for staining maple. Works somewhat like nitric acid/iron stain.
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Offline John Archer

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 04:52:17 AM »
Do your search again spelling it "vinegaroon"

Lots of information.

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 04:54:16 AM »
On another forum, a tutorial for making vinegaroon: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14946
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Offline LRB

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 12:12:45 PM »
  I would add that it works very well, but only on vege-tan leather. The vinegar/iron solution reacts with the tannens in the leather turning the leather black after a short time of a few  of minutes or more. A pre-coating of strong tea greatly aids the process as it adds even more tannens to the leather. I have never used it on wood though.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 12:15:11 PM by LRB »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 02:40:56 PM »
Then on oak, it would probably turn black.

Never thought of soaking maple in tea first. then applying vinegaroon.
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snowdragon

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2013, 05:14:19 AM »
Yep. I had an oak benchtop in my last shop. Spilled some vinegar stain on it and it turned black. I tried it on some walnut once, turned it black as well. Bill

Offline Stophel

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2013, 05:30:15 AM »
I have finally gotten vinegaroon to work.  It turns my leather black.... ish.  I have found that dousing it once with vinegaroon, then washing it in a baking soda solution, then dousing it once again with aqua fortis, and again baking soda, gets rid of most of the blue hue.  With oil, the blue is gone.

Also, I have gotten it to work on Maple wood!  It turns the wood grayish/greenish at first, then it starts to brown up.  After a day or so, it changes to the familiar orangy-brown color similar to Aqua Fortis.  I am told that there is no need to neutralize, and I haven't on my test pieces.  I have not put any finish on the test pieces yet, but I am concerned that the color is too much like a "stain" or "paint", and not as clear as A.F., but I will have to see when I get around to putting some finish on.
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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2013, 11:36:43 AM »
wait till you do finish it.looks beautiful.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2013, 03:12:22 PM »
Chris, your concern about a muddy finish: It's almost like you can see down into the wood. This may have more to do with what finish you use than the stain.

Vinegar stain on maple, with Chambers oil finish.  The Vinegar stain color was too dark for me, so I put hydrogen peroxide on it, and WOW! It went orange. More apps of vinegar stain, and it toned down some.



« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 03:22:19 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Long John

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2013, 04:38:10 PM »
Here are a couple of examples of the vinegar/iron stain.





Both are treated with 3 to 4 coats of stain with dewiskering between each coat and then Chambers oil finish.  I've been using the same crock of old barbed wire and nails in vinegar for almost 2 decades, now.  I just "sweeten" it up with fresh vinegar a couple of days before staining and decant off the clear liquid for my stain.

It has worked well for me.

Best regards,

John Cholin

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2013, 08:25:15 PM »
Hmmmm.  I've got an old crock of..... something.....around here somewhere.......
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Offline Pete G.

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2013, 01:12:16 AM »
Anyone ever tried it on ash ?

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 02:18:23 AM »
  I am told that there is no need to neutralize, and I haven't on my test pieces.  I have not put any finish on the test pieces yet, but I am concerned that the color is too much like a "stain" or "paint", and not as clear as A.F., but I will have to see when I get around to putting some finish on.
Chris vinegar black is ferric acetate and AF is ferric nitrate - both are similar - iron in solution ith VB being Iron dissolved in acetic acid which is much more volatile so gasses off easier/faster than AF which is of course iron dissolved in nitric acid. While not necessary VB can be blushed with heat to speed the gassing off.
Here are some comparisons of VB and AF on wood -
In the first image the top piece was my control using some homemade AF that I had used for years on various projects - on the lowere part is from left to write Vinegarroon. middle is Ferric Nitrate crystals (commercially made AF basically) made 5:1 with water, on the right is some AF made by dissolving some steel in Birchwood Casey's Plum Brown which includes nitric acid as well as a couple of others - both pieces of wood were only lightly finished with home brewed linseed oil varnish:


In this image the piece on the left was stained with my home brewed AF (the control used above) - the face was left un-neutralized to show how it can darken in sunlight even when finished. The piece on the left was done with Vinegaroon the whole thing un-neutralized - both pieces were fully finished with linseed oil varnish - as you can see the vinegaroon piece is just as clear as the AF piece - the only thing I've notice is that I don't get quite the degree of chatoyance depth (that looking down into the wood that then looks like an opal) with vinegaroon as I do with AF and can only figure that the residual nitric is having more effect, but for most uses vinegar black is so close (and less dangerous to make) to AF it's hard to tell the difference.


here's an original recipe from 1875:
 VINEGAR BLACK (aka Vinegaroon)
 For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.
 Note when making VB for leather rusted iron/steel is unnecessary while for wood stain it aids in getting the reddish hues.......Also heating speeds the process some what when making it, but is not absolutely necessary.......


FYI - vinegar black has been used to stain leather since at least the time of the Pharaohs and has been used to ebonize various woods since at least the early Roman Empire
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: vinagroon
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2013, 04:36:21 PM »
Fabulous historic info, Chuck. Thanks for showing your test pieces.

Tom
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